Floor plans and interior renderings should be online in October, so for now you’ll just have to settle for additional tower renderings, a Club Level floor plan and overview (including the wine cellar, tasting room, and “owners lounge”), and an animated “flyover” (accompanied by a real estate website soundtrack that – for once – doesn’t drive us totally insane).
∙ Millennium Tower: Official Website [millenniumtowersf.com]
∙ Millennium Tower: Sales Timeline, Additional Details And Renderings [SocketSite]
I’ve walked by this corner on my way to work every day for the past 3+ years and it’s pretty amazing to see the transformation from that nasty old building that was on the corner to this beautiful new project. Also, I don’t know if anyone noticed, but over the weekend they demolished that disgusting walkway that used to run over Beale Street and it’s amazing how just removing that walkway changes the complexion of the corner.
When they start tearing down the old Transbay terminal and remove those bus ramps, then you’ll really see some changes. No more shelters for the homeless and my walk to the office will be even better.
Its interesting that none of the new Rincon Hill towers is in the flyover. Looks like a fabulous building but it will not really be a skyline landmark.
Why tease us with a website when we don’t get to see floorplans till October?
I work right opposite this site. I cannot believe that they will charge $1500 psf for this location.
“I work right opposite this site. I cannot believe that they will charge $1500 psf for this location.”
They won’t.
The animated flyover is cool, but you notice that Millenium is surrounded in all directions by highrises except the southwest, and the views to the southwest are not that great…
So unless you’re on the 50th floor or higher you’re not going to see much of the bay or the bridges. Mostly likely views will be of other highrises and office buildings.
And I totally agree – $1500+/sqft for this location is insane….
Maybe yes, maybe no. Last Friday’s article in the Business Times reported very strong demand for luxury units in the Four Seasons and the Ritz Carlton – both located in seedy locations that are arguably no better than the Millenium.
$1500/sq ft. is a pipe dream. Even a pipe dream would be insulted for having this notion described as being considered a pipe dream. It won’t happen.
These are not Ritz-Carlton condo residences and I don’t even know if that’s a good comparison or not because, does anyone know, what kind of $/sq ft. are we talking about there?
I got a client into the last release of the Ritz for $1500 psf. On 11th floor. Ritz sold out very quickly at those prices.
“Maybe yes, maybe no. Last Friday’s article in the Business Times reported very strong demand for luxury units in the Four Seasons and the Ritz Carlton – both located in seedy locations that are arguably no better than the Millenium.”
Well the Business Times article also said that ‘branded’ condo complexes like the Four Seasons, Regis, and Ritz generally sell at 25% premium because of it’s hotel brand and services. Millenium is taking a huge chance selling at the Regis/Ritz/Seasons prices without a high end name associated with it.
I also don’t think the Regis location is seedy. It’s changed quite a bit over the years esp with the Y Buena art galleries, SF MOMA, W Hotel, restaurants, etc…
The Millennium Tower in New York completed last year with only 236 units was starting at $800 psf ($750 psf for large units) right at the peak of the market. Today some units still remain available, not to mention a portion of the building was reserved back as rentals. What makes this building in San Francisco so special? When was the last time San Francisco’s housing became more expensive than New York? It’s amusing to watch the numbers roll up like a snow ball from $1000 psf to $1500 then to $2000 psf, in peoples’ MOUTH that is.
This is a confident looking building. It’ll be a very nice addition to the city especially for the area where it’s located. Why can’t we just stop with that without squeezing out all that “the building has 8 corners, WOW!!!” or “the location will be to die for in just 10 years” BS? SomaGrand has 22 corners (if you count them like a pro): that didn’t change the fact that you could get a 10th floor 2bd at $580 psf? And why do we always hear “nobody has a crystal ball…” when promises of “neighborhoods” fail to materialize again and again?
If you turn off the music on their website and try walking around this area everyday for a few weeks (I did for a couple of years), you would find none of that romance portrayed in their marketing and see that this building is in reality just another tall glass building that’s popping up here and there in the city.
For comparison, I think buyers in this price bracket would instead be more gravitated towards projects with understated elegance such as the Infinity, which actually sits in a livable location. Presentations were not just already given to brokers, but also to some potential buyers and Millennium Tower’s direct competitors. Those who say that this building will start selling around $1500 clearly have no idea what they are talking about or are counting on something else for their own benefit.
Further to CameronRex’s point, the fly-over video also is not exactly accurate because it reflects those bus ramps that run over Beale and into the current Transbay Terminal as still being there. Those won’t be there once the old terminal is demolished in 2009. Beale Street will be completely free of elevated ramps. The only ramp that will exist as part of the new terminal will be a large one that comes in on the west side of the new terminal from the Bay Bridge.
“For comparison, I think buyers in this price bracket would instead be more gravitated towards projects with understated elegance such as the Infinity, which actually sits in a livable location.”
You had me until you said this. Get real. The Infinity is a block and half away from this property so unless you’re implying that the only difference is the “element” that presumably will still be present even at the new and improved Transbay Terminal, which I’m not saying they won’t, you’re kidding yourself.
If you would have said, a different location than ORH, that would have been something, but not the Infinity.
“Maybe yes, maybe no. Last Friday’s article in the Business Times reported very strong demand for luxury units in the Four Seasons and the Ritz Carlton – both located in seedy locations that are arguably no better than the Millenium.”
4 units (23F, 38B, 30F, 23E) at the St. Regis have been sitting still for a while. About a month or two ago here, some people were using a unit at St. Regis that sold within a couple of weeks as some kind of evidence as to how hot the market is. I wonder what they have to say now.
Blahhh, if the numbers you quote for the New York tower are true, then we are either in for a serious correction, or “its different here”. At least this could finally stop the posts about how “this unit is a bargain compared to New York or London”.
Blahhh and Morgan,
So what if the tower in New York sold for less per sqft? There are DOZENS of buildings in New York that sold or are selling for more. Why are you comparing these two buildings? Because they were built by the same company? So what! Try finding an equivalent location in New York and then compare.
“Blahhh, if the numbers you quote for the New York tower are true, then we are either in for a serious correction, or “its different here”. At least this could finally stop the posts about how “this unit is a bargain compared to New York or London”.”
http://www.millenniumptrs.com/pressrelease.cfm?presscenter_index=111
“Units range from 875-square-foot 1-bedroom apartments starting at $705,000, to 2,400-square-foot 4-bedroom homes starting at $1.8 million. The average 3-bedroom unit, one of the hardest configurations to find these days in New York, will start at $1.37 million”
I don’t think this is evidence for any serious correction, and I really don’t see one in the luxury condo market any time soon. It’s just how much these condos are really worth. The difference is San Francisco is not as used to these “luxury high rise condos”.
“The Millennium Tower in New York completed last year with only 236 units was starting at $800 psf ($750 psf for large units) right at the peak of the market.”
At the Millenium Tower Residences, in Battery Park, at the very southern tip of Manhattan, 875 sq foot condos are selling for $1.2 million. 1400 square feet will run you $1.8 million.
http://www.the-tower-residences.com/index_home.html
And Battery Park is not a particularly fashionable part of Manhattan.
I’m not the one making the comparison to Manhattan, but it appears that prices are now about $1300/SF there now.
“I’m not the one making the comparison to Manhattan, but it appears that prices are now about $1300/SF there now.”
Those are the last remaining units, which are unsold for a reason. I’m thinking price could be one of them. I don’t know what the average price was for the majority of the units sold in the new york tower. All I know is the starting price was on average below $800 psf. Does that serve as a good benchmark for the tower in San Francisco? Some will say yes, some will say no. But it definitely shows how ridiculous the numbers are thrown around lately in the last a few threads here.
Just to clarify, I’m not saying this is an inferior development in a doomed location. Neither am I saying the market is boiling hot or sky falling. I think in its segment of the market it is what it should be at this point: neutral (If you know a thing or two about Maya’s rendering capability in use of marketing to manipulate buyers’ emotions, you would agree). As far as pricing goes, the Infinity prepared to sell at prices 20% lower than what buyers seem to be bearing right now. Millennium Tower certainly helped with this by slowing down the constructions. But neither project can avoid competing head on forever. I would make a more reasonable guess that the Millennium tower will start selling right below $800 psf. But these will probably be no view units without parking. And there are plenty of them. It’s funy how $800 psf almost sounds cheap after hearing $1500 psf for a few days, isn’t it? Well, that’s the whole point…
“I would make a more reasonable guess that the Millennium tower will start selling right below $800 psf. But these will probably be no view units without parking. And there are plenty of them. It’s funy how $800 psf almost sounds cheap after hearing $1500 psf for a few days, isn’t it? Well, that’s the whole point…”
Well a principle at Millenium already stated in the Business Times that pricing will be the highest price per square foot in the marketplace, so I doubt they will start below $800/sqft. $800/sqft pricing is more like the Berry St developments.
A more likely scenario is the lowest, no view floors starting around $1000/sqft and probably topping out close to $2000/sqft at the highest floors….
Although I was being sarcastic when I posted about Millenium NYC being a sign that S.F. is overpirced, it is interesting to compare the two buildings. I am curious as to why the Battery Park location in Manhattan is so “bad” especially compared to Millenium S.F.? Millenium NYC has waterfront views and outlooks in other directions that are far better than the “Indianapolis” skyline view you get from Millenium S.F, and this don’t forget is at LESS COST. I have stayed in a hotel in that neighborhood and it is not 57th and 5th, but it is clean and safe compared to the current conditions near the S. F. terminal at the moment. ( I hope the new terminal changes this also, but I have yet to see a bus terminal that does not have a homeless problem). In the past someone defended this location as “urban living”, but I don’t think you have to live across the street from a bus or train station to be “urban”, and am suprised that the developer would choose this corner to build the highest per sq. ft. cost tower in S.F.
Nice, who do I make the check out too.
On a similar note I noticed that 45 Lansing was getting scraped on my way home from the office at 333 1st. I guess Turnberry is anxious.
Morgan,
The reason this location is better than Battery Park has nothing to do with views. It’s right in the Financial District, practically. I can walk to more places to eat, drink, and shop than I could in Battery Park.
The Millennium Towers in Battery Park are walking distance to Ground Zero, an area which will improve in the future. However, it is dead at night, and far from the action in NYC. And at $1300/SF for the units currently for sale, it is hardly cheap.
BPC is an upscale dorm for Wall street; it’s the planned version of Murray Hill. Analysts working 14 hour days don’t care that it has has one Gristedes, or shuts down after 11 p.m. These guys don’t cook and they don’t have kids. It’s a short stumble to work and back, which is the most important thing.
These folks don’t live near “the action”; most of the people on the financial industry ladder live in “boring” neighborhoods. They cab it to the meatpacking district or the LES from BPC, Murray Hill, or the upper east side. This is the same demographic who won’t care what’s outside their door in SF, so long as they can get a 15 minute cab ride into the Marina or the safe and friendly parts of the Mission.
“Well a principle at Millenium already stated in the Business Times that pricing will be the highest price per square foot in the marketplace, so I doubt they will start below $800/sqft. $800/sqft pricing is more like the Berry St developments.”
Nope, the developments on Berry st. start in the $500s psf. And they pretty much top off at about $1000 psf. Search results are just a few clicks away.
“A more likely scenario is the lowest, no view floors starting around $1000/sqft and probably topping out close to $2000/sqft at the highest floors….”
It’s actually in my interest to hope you are right and I’m wrong :). But the prices you suggested just will-not-happen at MT. Speculating what exactly “a principle” meant by “highest price psf” in “the” marketplace is pointless. Unlike the impression a few individuals here attempted to make, the Millennium Tower’s direct competitor IS the Infinity (you will see how shortly enough from both projects). So for the sake of comparison let’s look at a few facts. Fact 1: it’s commonly believed that the starting price at the Infinity is in the $800s psf. Not true. Price starts in the mid $600s psf for the low floor large units. And there were still tower units available a couple of months ago asking below $800 psf. That’s after several price increases. Fact 2. the Infinity had hoped to sell the first tower with an average price around $1100 in the best case scenario. It simply did not happen. And if I remembered right, the Millennium Tower has 20% units without parking, assuming these are all smaller units. The missing $75k parking value translates into about -$100 psf. So “starting at $1000 psf” is really saying they will sell at $450 psf higher than the Infinity. If they believed for a minute they could pull it off, then both teams surely wasted awful lot of time on each other. My guess of them opening doors at $800 psf is actually far from conservative.
What’s going on here is the Millennium team has been hoping to convey the idea that they created their own small market, through the magic hands of highly developed marketing. The key word is “buzz”, from all the different publications and websites, to realtors whispering to their “favorite clients” about how this is gonna be the development of the century, to making even the giant poster sound like some kind of technological breakthrough, are all part of this. And they are very skillful at it. But my gut feeling tells me that a bloodbath with the Infinity is right in the corner.
The market has changed. It’s not “doomed”, it’s just different. The several developments that have been selling well recently all priced themselves below expectations, leaving enough room to build up profit and sales momentum as price gets increased throughout the project. This way everyone is happy knowing they paid less than the next guy.
I may a bit slow tonight but I cannot tell if Frederick’s last post is serious or a joke?
“the building has eight corners”
“Located across the street from the New Trans Bay Terminal, this will replace Pacific Heights in the decades to come, as “The Address”. ”
Frederick, you can have the new bus station, I will take the place of one of those people having a fire sale on their unit at 2006 Washington.
Those of you who think The Mill is being construted across the street from a bus station, are invited to attend the presentations to the TransBay Terminal Authority in July.
It may be something more than a bus station.
Frederick
Frederick. Being next to busses and trains does not always translate to a desirable area, especially for the rich. I have looked at the Ca. Gov. train site and the stops (San Jose, Riverside, L.A., etc.) are not the stops the future buyers at Millennium would need. They would only use the rails if the stops were Palm Desert, Newport Beach, Santa Barbara, and Pebble Beach. WHY then are not the rich building mansions next to SFO? Ann Getty has her plane there, but she does not live there.
anom, seriously, go to Europe sometime. When Americans try to compare high speed train stations to airports it just makes them sound stupid.
No it was not to say train stations and airports were similar. It was to question why Frederick felt that a train station would make this corner the “new Pacific Heights”. BTW, have you ever been around the immediate blocks of trains stations in Europe? That doesn’t look like the next Pacific Heights either. The point was that even if the rich use the trains, that does not mean they want to live right next door. The Millenium looks like a great building, but THE question is whether or not this corner is worth $1500 a sq. ft.? Since when did high speed train stations become golf course or waterfront property?
Check out some of the mock-up drawings of the Transbay terminal. It’ll be impressive for sure and definitely better than the bus station that finally addressed some of the pigeon crap problem.
Well there you have it. I guess I have been investing in all the wrong areas. Russian Hill, Cow Hollow and the Marina, WHO would want to live there when you will be so far from the new train station? Help me since I may be missing the big picture, are you saying that the majority of people living South of Market are doing the commute down to the Peninsula and South Bay? If that is the case, then living across the street from the station will be a plus. I think many SOMA investors are making the new station the “answer” to all of that areas problems, and I hope you are not disappointed when many may remain after the transit station is operating.
Forgot to add, 2019 is the posted completion date of terminal WITH operating rail line extension. That is like buying next to a vacant lot where a planned park is going but the government website posted opening date is 2019! I guess I am not good at that kind of long term investing. Good luck, and I hope I live long enough to be able to enjoy riding the new trains.
“Forgot to add, 2019 is the posted completion date of terminal WITH operating rail line extension. That is like buying next to a vacant lot where a planned park is going but the government website posted opening date is 2019! I guess I am not good at that kind of long term investing. Good luck, and I hope I live long enough to be able to enjoy riding the new trains.”
Perfectly said. Think most people here don’t realize that during the next 10 years the whole area surrounding the terminal will become the largest demolition/construction site in SF. Paying $1500/sqft to live next to dusty dump trucks, cranes, tractors and trailers is not my idea of uber luxury living, not to mention the constant noise pollution the construction will create!
Rumor has it that the Infinity is raising prices again, in some unconventional ways… Those who bought at the Infinity should be very happy right now. Let’s see what the M.T’s next step is.
“Rumor has it that the Infinity is raising prices again, in some unconventional ways…”
What exactly does that mean ‘unconventional’ Blahhh?
I know that most, if not all the tower corner units are sold out so what is the majority of their inventory? The midrise units?
“What exactly does that mean ‘unconventional’?
😉
“I know that most, if not all the tower corner units are sold out so what is the majority of their inventory? The midrise units?”
Yes, the tree tops and the rest of the smaller 2 bds in the tower.
The Infinity is raising prices again in about a week. The developer completely stopped giving any incentive or any room for negotiation. Those who are seriously considering buying should put down your check now to save a few percent.
Does anyone know what incentives Infinity was offering? Are you talking about the fridge and dryer? So you are saying they are now raising prices and not including those appliances?
Also, did anyone ever get HOA fees for a discount?
Thanks blahhh for the info!
Fridge and dryer have always been included as they should be. Some of those who got in early were able to get some credit towards upgrades on flooring for instance. No free HOA was ever given and it won’t be. The Infinity developer does not like to play those games with buyers.
“No free HOA was ever given and it won’t be. The Infinity developer does not like to play those games with buyers.”
They don’t have to because their sales have been strong. They have a great location and their marketing has been great but things can turn around. If they get harder to sell at some point, they might offer those types of incentives as well.
Do we know whats the increase in price? Anybody knows whats left?
I checked with their sales office about a month ago and they had about half dozen of the curved corner units left. A couple on the lower floors at around $1000/sqft, and a few on the highest floor ranging from $1200-1400/sqft.
I would say their tower is 80% sold out and the treetops maybe 50%.
And gauging from their comments, they couldn’t have been happier with their sales lately…
Any pricing on the tree tops?
Other high rise developments coming up including Millennium Tower can definitely learn a few things from the Infinity, especially in the sales and marketing department. Excellent sales people know when it comes to marketing luxury items, what they are really selling are themselves rather than just the product. There is no need to tell buyers how wonderful a location will be in just 12 years, and it’s just wrong to tell anyone how a window opening up towards freeways and messy rooftops frames a million dollar view.
Hand out understated “brochures” or simply the floor plans like the ones the Infinity has. Certainly drop all that snobby cocktail parties, PLEASE! To get buyers involved, just invite the chief architect to give lectures about the design process. It is the best way to attract and retain QUALITY buyers with substance who will be the most comfortable sharing the same building with one another.
Blaahh,
Did you buy in the Infinity? Just curious.
Luckily, I don’t need to 🙂
blahhh… do you work for the Infinity? Give us more updates on pricing and whats going on in the building!
“Luckily, I don’t need to :)”
I’m a little foggy headed this morning. What do you mean?
“I’m a little foggy headed this morning. What do you mean?”
It means no. Or would you be more satisfied if I told you I bought 3 at the Infinity?
“Any pricing on the tree tops?”
The tree tops got a small increase about a month ago I think, but not too much different since they were released in the beginning.
I bought at Infinity way back last summer. It’s true that the tower is almost sold out. Think there’s some 1 bedrooms and middle 2 bedroom units available, but the corner units are just about sold out. I got myself a corner unit on the upper floors.
For the treetops, if you want a balcony or terrace, prepare to spend 900k+ for a 2 bedroom. One bedrooms start in the 600s. They had some 3 bedrooms going for 1.1M and up, but those had large terraces.
It’s funny – I compared prices at both Palms and Infinity and found that prices are just about the same when compared to Infinity’s treetops vs Palms. Comparing the 2 products, it’s not even close. Infinity is hands down the better product at a vastly superior location (which is why I ended up buying there)
Infinity Buyer,
I’m curious why you chose the Palms as a direct comparison to the Infinity. Also, how recent are those prices that you quoted regarding the 3 bedroom treetop units at the Infinity? Thanks.
SC
SC,
That was just one example when I was price comparing the market last summer. When I reserved a unit at Infinity I had roughly a month before going into hard contract so I wanted to see what else was out there. Palms was just one complex that stood out because I couldn’t believe they were priced the same as Infinity’s treetop units (and in some cases, same as the tower units), but their location, amenities, finishes were so inferior to Infinity.
It makes me believe I got a fair deal (corner ‘water view’ unit above the 25th floor at $1000/sqt).
The prices I quoted are a few months old. It’s probably a conservative price (hint: prices most likely higher now)
hope that helps…
For those of you interested in the new “Bus Station”, the proposals for the new TransBay Terminal and 1,000 ft (or taller) tall tower and scheduled to be presented in August.
https://socketsite.com/archives/2007/01/transbay_terminal_and_tower_design_competition_the_team.html
https://socketsite.com/archives/2006/12/they_just_keep_getting_bigger_and_bigger_and_bigger.html
https://socketsite.com/archives/2006/11/san_francisco_transbay_terminal_design_competition_upda.html
https://socketsite.com/archives/2007/04/justqutoes_renzo_piano_talks_tall_buildings_with_jk_din.html
https://socketsite.com/archives/2007/06/transbay_terminal_design_update_and_then_there_were_thr.html
Does anyone know, is the high speed rail actually funded? I thought the “planning funds” were cut. The other question I have is the last I heard was there was no decision yet about whether it would stop in Oakland instead of the city, since the city spur would be built later.
Morgan,
HSR is still up in the air. However, if it does happen, it will definitely go to SF before Oakland. The only question right now is whether it will go over the Altamont Pass (then across the Bay next to the Dumbarton Bridge, then up the Peninsula, with a branch down to SJ as well) or whether it will go over the Pacheco pass, through SJ and up the Peninsula. The Oakland leg has always been shown in the second or third phase, but is rumored to be kind of a pipedream anyway since it would come after legs to Sac and San Diego. Maybe by 2050 for the Oakland leg.
Uh Oh. It looks like the high speed trains are more in doubt at this point.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/06/28/BAGQKQN9PN1.DTL