Like there’s any chance we could pass up a listing described at “uber cool.” Okay, so perhaps it was actually the pictures (and floor plans).
∙ Listing: 745 Detroit (3/2.5) – $1,700,000 [Sotheby’s] [MLS]
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Like there’s any chance we could pass up a listing described at “uber cool.” Okay, so perhaps it was actually the pictures (and floor plans).
∙ Listing: 745 Detroit (3/2.5) – $1,700,000 [Sotheby’s] [MLS]
This house sold for $885k a year ago. I’m having a hard time believing that this “uber cool” remodel added almost a million dollars worth of value. And in Sunnyside? Please. Every house in the neighborhood sells in the 700s or 800s. Who is going to buy this?
This is a delusional flipper project… My guess, they’re probably working on their next project. Maybe a $1.2m mansion in Bay View?
Does the electric blue night sky come with the place, or is that an upgrade?
Oh Please…granted, VERY nice remodel and fantastic staging/photography. But it’s a characterless box of a building in a nothing special neighborhood. I agree with the first comment…DELUSIONAL
3063 / 005 / 0 745 DETROIT ST
Description: INTERIOR REMODEL W/ (N) MASTER BATHROOM. NEW WINDOWS IN (E) OPENINGS, REMOVAL OF (E) FIREPLACE & CHIMNEY, (N) WINDOW OPENING AT FRONT. NEW STUCCO AT EXTERIOR FRONT & BACK. REMOVAL OF (E) REAR DECK.
Cost: $125,000.00
3063 / 005 / 745 DETROIT ST
Description: REUSE EXISTING CIRCUITING; INSTALL 52 SWITCHES, 45 RECEPTACLES, 78 LIGHT FIXTURES; 6 SMOKE DETECTORS
Have any of you seen the house yet? Have you been inside — have you walked the area surrounding the home or looked at the views? First off — not my listing so don’t go there.
As far as the Sunnyside neighborhood goes –it’s an area seeing a good deal of change and many of the homes have been substantially upgraded. As Glen Park continues to become more and more popular and the average price continues to rise, we will see a jump in pricing in the adjacent neighborhoods- – namely the northern section of the Sunnyside.
I’m refraining from saying “it’s worth 1.7M” — I’ll wait until I go see the house on Sunday or Tuesday. As for location – the house is within walking distance to the Glen Park Village and the BART station and is actually closer to the heart of Glen Park than many of the Glen Park listings that are currently on the market.
Amazes me how quickly posters jump on the overprice bandwagon — do your homework — go look at the property and then post an educated opinion as to the value. If after seeing the home you feel it’s terribly overpriced – come back and post that — and say why it is — but it’s incredibly arbitrary and ignorant to make statements based on a web site and prior sales history.
“Amazes me how quickly posters jump on the overprice bandwagon ”
No, its not overpriced. No way. Let’s list it at $1.9m. That seems more in line with the “upgrades” and the “hot neighborhood”.
Hilarious. You made my day. Are you the sales agent?
do your homework — go look at the property and then post an educated opinion as to the value
Note the emphasis of this and other Realtors to get people to open houses to make it look like they are packed.
No one is going to waste their time packing your open houses for a place that is listed at twice the superheated price of a year ago, no matter how badly you want to exclaim “Have you seen those open houses in that neighborhood: they are packed!”
If you want to stuff your open houses to make it look like people are still interested in paying last year’s prices, you are just going to have to continue to lean on friends and family, and of course, your other realtors and their assistants, no matter how much interest they are losing in keeping up the charade.
“Does the electric blue night sky come with the place, or is that an upgrade?”
Are you kidding? That’s the neon light from the liquor store and the gas station at the corner. Great photographer though. If they now hire Dostojewsky to write the sales flyer “soaring ceilings, gleaming floor, stunning views, etc.” that beauty will easily fetch $2m. LOOOOOOOOOOOOL
The scary thing is someone will pay that price. Its happened before. A wildly overpriced house wows someone, who may or may not be familiar with the neighborhood, and they buy it.
Just because open houses are packed doesn’t mean they are all serious buyers. I look at open houses out of my price range all the time and I’m not the only one.
I agree that the photoshopped blue daylight looks pretty cool. But nobody is clueless enough to be wowed by that once they actually see the place with real, much more un-cool natural lighting from cloudy skies. They did a good job on the remodel — looks like every W Hotel. May make it so they can break even given that they paid too much a year ago before the market began to go south.
I am amazed by some of these conspiracy theory comments. I find it hard to believe Greg’s comments were written to make people show up to an open house. And by the way he is not the listing agent. Come on people! You are really reading into things a little too much!
I agree with S – I was a bit startled to see so many haters.
I specifically said, I am not the listing agent. I don’t know the listing agent and I have ZERO interest in whether this house sells or not. I don’t know the sellers and I have not seen the house — which is why I won’t comment on whether it’s overpriced or not. This blog is morphing into nothing better than a Hollywood Gossip blog — base your comments on facts.
Look how quickly you all are to question my motives — I must be the listing agent or a good friend of his and my goal MUST be to get all of you disgruntled individuals into the open house. I could care less whether 1 of you steps foot into Detroit.
Let’s say I took a picture of my car which I purchased 2 years ago and told you that I put new wheels, a new stereo system, transmission, tinted windows, spoiler, etc into it and was selling it for twice what I purchased it for. I posted 4 pictures and said it was a significant upgrade from the car that was purchased. In order to get an accurate assessment of how fairly I priced the car, you’d have to come look at, kick the tires, drive it around the block, get it inspected, etc.
How is a home any different? How do you know the materials used in renovating the home or the craftsmanship that went into the renovation. Are you all itimately aware of that specific block of Detroit St. I am not — I have no idea what the house looks like or whether it “feels” like home inside. I don’t know what the other houses look like or who my neighbors might be — i’m not certain as to exactly what the views are — so I’ll go take a peak at the house and then I will make an educated post based on what I see.
Some of you are way too quick to cast judgement and you should think twice before you question motives and label people.
The second rule of real estate after location, location, location : never buy the nicest house on the block.
note: the windows are not photoshopped. It’s called twilight.
“Let’s say I took a picture of my car which I purchased 2 years ago and told you that I put new wheels, a new stereo system, transmission, tinted windows, spoiler, etc into it and was selling it for twice what I purchased it for. I posted 4 pictures and said it was a significant upgrade from the car that was purchased. In order to get an accurate assessment of how fairly I priced the car, you’d have to come look at, kick the tires, drive it around the block, get it inspected, etc.”
Actually, before I wasted any time coming to look at it I’d go online to get the blue book value, see what similar cars are selling for and the value of the upgrades, and then check the vehicle history and reviews. If that all checked out then I’d go take a look and I’d be willing to bet that you’d do exactly the same. Nice analogy.
“Hollywood Gossip” blog? You mean people are talking about properties around the water cooler without realtor supervision or spin? Oh the horror! You should be so lucky. In LA they pay publicists to generate much of that Hollywood gossip. It’s called marketing.
Michael, I agree with your comment. The sales history and the neighborhood don’t necessarily warrant the current asking price, but because every home is so different and buying one is so personal, I think it’s important that people see with their own eyes before drawing conclusions. I have no problem with negative comments/feedback regarding listings, I’m just tired of the immediate pounce by readers where very little due diligence was done.
Nothing gets a thread going like a good Realtor post! Thanks Greg.
Bottom line is that this site isn’t sensationalizing anything. We are the buying public, or at least the renting public. We all are interested in the market to some degree or another, and we all have our motivations.
I don’t think its out of line for people to comment on their gut reaction to the listing price. And when a Sotheby’s listing comes on the market that is “uber cool” with photos and presentation generally reserved for a multi-million dollar home it is going to attract some attention. You can’t expect all of it to be positive. Kudos to the agent for doing a great job of marketing the project; but realistically, when I see this type of investment in staging and marketing, all I can think is that there is a LOT of margin in that house.
It also doesn’t ‘feel’ like 2564 sqft listed on MLS and I don’t know if $663 psf is a good price for that area. The garage takes up 50% of the lower level and the top floor doesn’t look like its 1600sf so I’m going to venture that the sf is a little high as well; making the the psf even higher.
I have no interest in that area so I’m not going to visit the open house; but I’ll go on record and state that this house will NOT sell for >$1.7M and will see a couple of quick reductions.
eddy
Oh yeah, anyone know why the facade of the house is cropped so tightly? With such a good photog you’d think you’d have a nice wide angle shot of the whole thing? Seems odd???
Let’s say I took a picture of my car which I purchased 2 years ago and told you that I put new wheels, a new stereo system, transmission, tinted windows, spoiler, etc into it and was selling it for twice what I purchased it for. I posted 4 pictures and said it was a significant upgrade from the car that was purchased. In order to get an accurate assessment of how fairly I priced the car, you’d have to come look at, kick the tires, drive it around the block, get it inspected, etc.
If you took a 10 year old Toyota corolla, added $125 worth of improvements to it, waxed it to make it really shiny, and wanted $60K for it, I don’t think I’d need to drive it and kick the tires to know you were smoking crack.
And while I agree that some irresponsible idiot might have taken out a loan they had no intention of paying back and bought the place a a year to two ago, those days are history.
To be fair regarding the poster who posted the permit info for the property – property owners and developers routinely understate the value of a renovation to minimize their property tax liability and permit costs. Capital improvements costs can be added to your property tax basis and some permit costs are also based on the scope and budget of your work. So as a result, those cost estimates in the permit info are often unreliable and most often significantly understated. Suffice it to say that they likely put significantly more than $125,000 into the building.
Yes, “Greg”. You are right and everyone else is wrong. Every person should make a comment in life or even just to have a gut feeling about something ONLY if they had done a full up close assessment.
And YOU should quit being a realtor, perhaps shave your head and then work as a Zen educator who teaches people how to conduct their thinking and communication process online. After all, the internet is serious business, right?
Do us a favor: don’t use words that you can’t comprehend such as “label” people. I didn’t see you do a 360 assessment on hundreds of socketsite’s posters “in person” when you called this site “nothing better than a Hollywood Gossip blog”. If that’s the case, what are you doing here anyways? Surely you got tons of evaluations waiting among other better things to do than policing people online.
I posted the original comment. I don’t need to sit in the bathtub to know very factually that it’s not worth the price. I know factually that I can buy a teardown in that neighborhoods for $600k, knock it down and build my dream home for less than $1.1m. Significantly less. So you’ll forgive me if I pass on a drive by. This house is so far out of touch with reality (and comps) that it’s laughable. Sunnyside is barely San Francisco. Glen Park is hip because it’s close to Noe (which used to be a total dump, btw). So the big feature of the neighborhood is that it’s almost like owning in Glen Park, which is almost like owning in Noe?
And how is it that your partner can bash the list price of this place based on pure speculation but you immediately feel compelled to bash us for posting our opinions?
http://gtwice.blogspot.com/2007/04/riddle-me-this.html
Why stop worrying so much about the “hate” on this blog and go focus on greed? That’s what’s really at play here… IMO.
“The second rule of real estate after location, location, location : never buy the nicest house on the block.”
Isn’t there a 3rd, 4th, or 5th rule of real estate…something about Curb Appeal?
Well, this place has zero. Looks like a brick.
And I agree with Eddy’s comments about the tightly cropped facade pic. Definitely odd. Perhaps same with the backyard picture.
(sorry i don’t know how to do html tags)
good luck with the appraisal on this one…
Sheesh, you guys? Can’t we all just get along?
Anyway, we all know from the chart in the “To Rent or To Buy” posting that it makes no financial sense whatsoever to buy a $1.7m house. But the pictures sure are purty.
Happy Thursday, everyone! 🙂
i do not want to get too involved in this strand as it’s starting to get a bit heated and i agree with Anon 12:40, no need to get overly aggressive here. the only reason i’m commenting is because i noticed i was brought into the mix by not_impressed in regards 219 Chattanooga Street. since i was brought in, i thought i should at least defend myself. i never “bashed” chattanooga and i’m actually very familiar with the property as i’m personal friends with the tenants and have been spending time in that house for the last 4 years. i merely questioned the appreciation and was hoping somebody had insight. again, i’m not looking for an argument, i just wanted to speak up because i was brought in unsolicited.
Wow, has this post attracted a lot of bile.
I took the effort to go back and look at the pics and statement again. I think even more that it’s flash over substance for this sucker. This is a typical 1950/60’s box updated and staged very nicely. If this can sell for 1.7 in Sunnyside, I’m putting my house on the market tomorrow and retiring.
1) Eddy is right..there’s no way this is 2500 square feet. I think the garage got counted somehow.
2) Only the lower level(MBR) has access to the backyard, which is apparently quite small and completely decked.
3) googlemaps shows that this part of detroit is actually a cul de sac (that’s a minor plus probably). Half of the street appears to be a pathway/stair street. That could add to the charm… The downside is that there is apparently very little rear yard, as those go with the adjacent homes on Mangels and Melrose.
4) I’m having a hard time imagining the expansive views of SF that the website trumpets. OK…well maybe part of San Francisco, but mostly Daly City and Brisbane
To be fair regarding the poster who posted the permit info for the property – property owners and developers routinely understate the value of a renovation to minimize their property tax liability and permit costs.
I lied about the permit costs, but my disclosure document is the absolute truth, I swear!
Oh, come on, Greg! It doesn’t matter that you’re not the listing agent OR a friend of theirs. If this house sells for $1.7, it will just justify YOU listing one down the street for $1.8. And then you WILL be profitting from it. To try and make us believe that your comments aren’t biased is completely unethical. This blog is a very serious look at real estate in SF and is most often very synical at the outrageous prices people will pay for crap. It also exposes the flaws that a new coat of paint can’t cover – like a cheap flipper that wants $1 million profit. That’s how this market got so out of wack in the first place! I’m sure that you would be that LAST person to advise a client to list their house at the REAL value, without a new coat of paint and with all the cracks from the last earthquake showing! I can hear you now – “I want potential buyers to see the bad condition the house is in and bid accordingly, even though it means making $10,000 commision when I could be making $50,000.” Pleez!
I was going to put in a bid but reading this thread has changed my mind.
Just kidding.
I’m still going bid.
Greg: maybe for a change sellers could list – and document – all the real updates they have done (strengthened the foundations, put in that seismic momentum steel frame, put on a new roof, replaced the dry rot, etc.) and spare us all that staging BS and Magnum photography crap. Then you might get fewer sarcastic comments.
I’ve been thinking way too much about this property, and I’ve concluded that alot of the bitterness comes from the mismatch between a hyperslick and beautiful presentation on a website vs. the reality of Sunnyside (which is a nice neighborhood, but it ain’t Pacific Heights).
I’ve concluded that the magazine quality preciosity of the website is a big turn-off (to me at least) when I know that the reality of living at 745 Detroit will be nothing like the realtor implicitly promises. Since Sotheby’s is a high end realtor, I am sure that their approach works for truly unique homes in great neighborhoods. But it just feels all wrong for a nice house in this neighborhood. It’s just an overboard approach, and I think most of us feel it instinctively. Combine that with an eye popping price….and…well the bile starts flowing.
So…I think it’s all a bit of hubris. But, honestly, I just may go see it for the fun of it.
RG at 2:32, I agree the the market in SF is out of whack but seriously, the ‘REAL’ value of any property is what someone is willing to pay for it. Like it or not there have been over the past few years a large number of buyers willing to pay high sums for property in SF. We can all whine and moan but that fact is that these buyers established the ‘REAL’ value for that period of time. Whether and to what extent there will be a correction in those values remains to be seen.
Anonymous at 3:39 – most if not all major structural changes to a property are part of the disclosure statement. What those improvements are worth is up to those offering on the property.
And a general comment: on a blog dealing with real estate the views of real estate agents can be valuable. If large numbers of the Socketsite community jump on realtors every time one posts they may stop posting and we will lose their input.
“And a general comment: on a blog dealing with real estate the views of real estate agents can be valuable. If large numbers of the Socketsite community jump on realtors every time one posts they may stop posting and we will lose their input.”
Completely agree with regard to the value of realtor input but I have seen many others comments on socketsite that have not solicited such strong reactions. Could it have something to do with Greg labeling others OPINIONS as “ignorant”, uneducated, and ill informed and then going so far as to label Socketsite as a “Hollywood Gossip blog”? And the community jumped on him? Gee, can’t imagine why.
“The scary thing is someone will pay that price. Its happened before. A wildly overpriced house wows someone, who may or may not be familiar with the neighborhood, and they buy it.”
If someone does buy it for this price doesn’t that mean there is a market for this home at that price? The market may be small, but it’s still a market. Why blame the agent or the seller? If they get that price, they are smart.
“Anonymous at 3:39 – most if not all major structural changes to a property are part of the disclosure statement. What those improvements are worth is up to those offering on the property.”
My experience with disclosure statements has been that it is almost impossible to find out what exactly has been done. Check for example the seismic section: “is the house bolted down to the foundations?” I guarantee you that most of the time the answer is “don’t know” which usually means the seller very well knows but has no intention of revealing. But people are more interested in marble counter tops for a couple of thousand bucks from Home Depot than in the foundations of their homes. The SF real estate scene is a complete joke – best demonstrated by listings like the one on Detroit.
CR – 4:23, I suspect there are more agents posting already on the site than actually let on. And Agent input is valuable but only as it relates to adding value to the community. Calling the community a “Hollywood Gossip blog” isn’t value added on any level.
And I suspect that there are more buyers, or potential buyers here, so if I were a public figure Realtor publicly posting on this site I’d be more interested in adding value that might actually drive customers to want to work with me.
eddy
disclosure: not affiliated with RE in any capacity; and I’m a potential buyer, current renter.
Whoa, folks, your anger directed at Realtors is misplaced. They are not hired as public servants to uphold the honesty of the profession, they are hired by the seller to get as much $$ as they can.
This listing reminds me of the kid selling lemonade. Man walks up and says “how much”. Kid says, “$1000 per glass”. Man says, “wow, how many do you think you can sell at that price?” Kid says, “all I need to sell is one!”
Here, I suspect that the developer built something that turned out way better than he had planned. So he figures he’ll live in it himself. But if someone wants to buy it from him for an astronomical price, he’ll sell: all he has to sell is one, and besides, he really LIKES it, and really doesn;t want to sell it.
His realtor sells lots of houses for him, so he lists it at whatever price the guy wants and fugures, what the heck, I’ll keep him happy. There is a place on Baker in Cow Hollow like that. The guy keeps listing it high. Ever been in that place: beautiful from top to bottom. I can see why he doens’t want to part with it.
So, who cares what this guy and his Realtor lists at. I think you guys are making a mountain out of a moehill. It’s a pretty house and I’ll bet it will be packed with lookie loos. And it will probably make the guy proud to see people admiring a very good job in exactly the wrong neighborhood.
Will it sell? No one else would be crazy enough to do a house up this well in this neighborhood, so all he has to do is convince one person to buy it. No harm in trying if he just wants to live in it anyway.
RG — Don’t call me unethical — You’ve never met me and clearly have never worked with me. If you knew me on a personal level or a professional one, you wouldn’t call me unethical.
I’m a fan of the concept behinnd Socketsite. I’ve personally met with and spoken to the man who runs the site several times. If I listed this house for 1.7 million, I’d expect to get some heat from this “community.”
I encouraged you to go see the house before you say it’s overpriced — that’s all I said. You wanna attack me on a personal level — find my e-mail address and engage me. But you should be ashamed at yourself for calling me unethical. I’ve worked hard for 6 years to earn a reputation as a honest hard working man and I’m not going to sit around and let you disparage me because you disagree with me.
Grow up and treat people with the respect they deserve.
Hey you guys, how about those Giants? Doing pretty well so far, don’t you think.
Heh heh, not that I’m changing the subject on a topic that has spun too far out of control…
Tipster — I’m sorry it spun out of control. I should have used a word other than “ignorant” in my initial post. I do feel it’s inapropriate to call a home over priced when your basis is sales history and photos. If the word “ignorant” offended a poster — i’m certainly sorry.
That said – it’s ridiculous for someone to toss around a term like “unethical.” This is a widely read forum and users should be held to a higher standard. I attempted to participate in a thread like many of my fellow Realtors have in the past — same thing happens on this forum time and time again — ATTACK the REALTOR. So — go ahead and attack — soon enough you will have a forum full of disgruntled individuals and no one will dare offer a counter to their arguments. You can all be disgusted with Realtors and the local real estate market. Enjoy – I’m going to focus my energy on my clients.
What all of the posters are missing is the change in value of the neighborhoods in San Francisco.
Before the growth in business on the Peninsula in the 1970’s, the most sought after neighborhoods in San Francisco were North of California, Pacific Heights, Lake St & Jordan Park, SeaCliff, Marina, Cow Hollow, Russian, Nob & Telegraph Hill.
In the 1980’s an expansion of popular neighborhoods (as reflected in selling prices) began to include the North Waterfront, Pine St corridor, various parts of the Richmond Dist. St Francis Woods, Noe Valley and even those special properties on Portero Hill.
In the 1990’s the market was flat until something called Netscape invited the world to invest in the Internet & the Bay Area. Boom went South Park, SOMA, Noe Valley, the Mission and anything south of Folsom and Market St. Not to mention all real estate in the Bay Area.
Now, being close to 101 going south continues to invite those futurists, in exploring the new neighborhoods of San Francisco.
Instead of looking at the moment, one should consider the dynamics of the Bay Area economy and its future. The high paying tech and new industry jobs continue to attract SF Residents that enjoy high paying incomes on the Peninsula, but want the lifestyle San Francisco provides.
Sunnyside is not the last outpost!! 745 Detroit is a risk for the seller, the agent and the buyer. Just like it was to buy a live work loft on Townsend in the 1980’s and a condo at the Oriental Warehouse, and more recently at One Rincon.
The same will be said about the Millennium and the new projects in the Transbay Terminal, Mid Market and many other revitalized area of this unique City.
Those that took 6 months of longer to get here in the 1850’s would say the “Best is yet to come”.
If you attended the TransBay Terminal Joint Powers Authority (TJPA) on Tuesday evening, you would have seen a presentation that could eclipse the growth of the South Bay and Peninsula High Tech and Venture Capital industry that has fuelled the demand for San Francisco real estate for the past two decades.
This project to create a new hub for transportation in the Bay Area, located on Mission Street at 1st, is designed to bring the Bay Area and San Francisco into the 21st Century.
Do some research and you will find out this is going to happen.
So!!
The future is in front of you. Sunnyside, not the Sunnyvale where Intel began, is the new Noe Valley – Glen Park. It may not provide a price point of $1.7M in April of 2007, but it will not be that far in the future.
Frederick
Residents that enjoy high paying incomes on the Peninsula, but want the lifestyle San Francisco provides.
Yes, just the other day, I was thinking about how great it would be to have that great Sunnyside lifestyle: so worth the one hour commute every day to live in such a “lifestyle” neighborhood, as if Mountain View, San Mateo, or Burlingame isn’t a better lifestyle without the mega commute.
Nice try Frederick.
Frederick — as soon as I’m done weaping over the beating I’ve taken today on Socketsite I’ll answer — ok — blew my nose and wiped the large unethical tears that are pouring down my evil Realtor face — I couldn’t agree with ya more regarding the changing neighborhoods in San Francisco.
Potrero Hill, Bernal Heights, Glen Park, SoMa, Northern Panhandle, Hayes Valley — area’s that have seen unreal changes in the past 10 years. I’m familiar with houses that sold for $250K 10 years ago and are now selling for 1.75 Million.
I don’t know whether I’d drop 1.7 on the highest price home in an area in April of ‘ 07 — but if it was a place I could call home for the next 30 years, I’m certain I’d do well financially when the time came to sell.
Ok — back to my tissues — Anon, RG and others have sent me reeling — not sure I’m going to have the energy to get my Realtor School Bus over to Detroit St — I have 53 people to pick up and get through the listing — I’ve given them all “talking points” so as they are walking around the house they can feign interest in the house and hopefully do their job – that’s right — drive the actual sales price up to 2.1 million.
Dear Anon at April 12, 2007 10:09 PM,
“lifestyle” neighborhood, as if Mountain View, San Mateo, or Burlingame isn’t a better life style.
Hum! Some how I missed out on the last show at Slims or the Fillmore, the Giants losing at AT&T, or the 2,000 plus restaruants in SF or something called the Davis Symphony Hall or 100’s of other entertainment events in Mt. View (where in went to high school or San Mateo (where I was born) or in Burlingame!!! You missed out on South City, Millbrae or Palo Alto (Sand Hill Road is still there, but is on the move to the Presidio).
Well maybe Santa Clara will be the hot spot with the amusement park and the new Santa Clara 49ers!!
Something tells me the new High Speed rail is not making a stop in the burbs!
Frederick
Too many SFers think that this is some socialist country. A seller has no duty to anyone to sell his property for what others can afford or think is fair. Real estates agents are hired to get the most for the property they can. They are not public servants who should make sure all prices are fair to everyone.
If you don’t like the price you don’t have to buy it. That’s the beauty of our capitalist culture.
It’s a gorgeous listing and would go for millions more in Noe or even Hayes, so keep that in mind before bagging too much on the list price. To the point of the posting, the floorplan and remodel seem top notch – those kitchen cabinets are not the Ikea brand ones that are often installed in Pac Heights remodels that sellers try to pass off as high-end.
I think you hit the nail on the head.
location
location
location
Neighborhoods like Potrero Hill, Bernal, etc. seem to gone up in price in relation to the commercial activities there. Detroit street doesn’t seem to be near any activities like that. Maybe, Glen Park but parking is quite bad there and walking there, well, the hills are quite steep to and from this location. This house is close to Teresita, and while it’s nice and quiet area, the lure of these hoods are families, and 1.75 Million is a lot money. Something closer in Miraloma with the same sq footage but not as archititural surreal could be had for $500k less, and detached too.
Good luck to everyone!
“If you don’t like the price you don’t have to buy it. That’s the beauty of our capitalist culture.”
Nobody is advocating price control. We are just having a ball watching a flip go bad or a sucker buyer getting screwed royally with this plywood palace.
Hillarious.
[Editor’s Note: For the record, that’s not what we’re about. Not even close. We’re about understanding the market and trends, making informed and fact based decisions, and identifying interesting opportunities and architecture. It’s not about schadenfreude but rather helping our readers avoid some potential misfortunes (or find some potential fortunes) of their own.]
Though the remodel is quite nice, due to the 2nd/3rd tier neighborhood (it’s not Pac Hts!) and fact that the garage sq footage is CLEARLY part of the total listed, this house is not worth $1.7M.
Someone who needs a loan to buy this – they won’t get an appraisal at that level, no way.
Someone paying cash – sunwise use of your cash right now. you’ll be paying more than something is worth and losing return you could get investing your money elsewhere or in other vehicles.
“I know factually that I can buy a teardown in that neighborhoods for $600k, knock it down and build my dream home for less than $1.1m”
Having just built a new house, ground up in San Francisco – as unlikely as this sounds. . . . it almost surprises me that house prices are not higher. The cost of construction is shocking. When we do have the big shake. . . . Rebuilding is going to be ridiculous.
Here is some back of envelope math (in part based on my experience).
Minimum present cost of a ‘regular’ (ish) lot on a street that you would want a ‘dream home’: $700,000
Closing costs $6000
Raw construction cost: 2400 sqft @ 400/ sqft . Yes, construction will cost that, unless you are the contractor, for a ‘moderate’ custom home. Forget what the permit forms say! = $960,000
Permit fees/surveys/school fees/wastewater capacity charge/PG&E fees/geo-tech report: $45,000.
Architects/ engineers/ specialist fees. Assuming a basic service, no lighting design, minimal interior design, nothing to unusual (i.e. shoring) $96,000
Interest on lot during planning (assume 1 year, for a non controversial, ha!, permit) $30,000
Interest for construction loan (1 year period) $60,000.
Total cost = $1,897,000
Note: If you have a pretty credit score, you can probably borrow 80% of construction cost, or 70% of future value (as determined by the bank). So, you will likely need about $375,000 skin into the game. . . . . .
This is before you factor in *risk* that you may never get a demolition permit, that the neighborhood might keep you in appeal purgatory, that construction prices wont go up ’cause of China’, or that you won’t be moving into your dream home for 2-3 years! You will also need 35% down for the lot, unless you buy a house to tear down (but then you may not be allowed to, see above). . . . You will likely have to pay the architect and permit fees out of pocket, though you may be able to roll some of that into the construction loan if the end valuation and loan ratios support the numbers (unlikely). You will also spend a lot of your life working on the project! Your friends may no longer recognize you 😉
This is possibly one of the hardest places to build on the planet, and another reason property is expensive here. If the stars align, you might make some money. There’s also lots of chances to loose your shirt.
not impossible. not a picnic! Definitely a unique experience.
“The future is in front of you. Sunnyside, not the Sunnyvale where Intel began, is the new Noe Valley – Glen Park. It may not provide a price point of $1.7M in April of 2007, but it will not be that far in the future”.
Frederick, I have lived in San Francisco for more than 25 years and have personally seen the amazing price rise and the “gentrification” of previously basic working class or worse neighborhoods. Your observations are good, however I do not share your optimism for the future. Although San Francisco has always been expensive, the relationship of normal, non-IPO, incomes and house costs has steadily worsened so that now only a tiny fraction of the population can afford to buy.
For the last few years this problem has been temporarily mitigated by the only other adjustable factor in the house purchase equation: the loan terms. Low interest rates, combined with down payments that might remain steady as a dollar amount but decline as a percentage of sale price, or the no down, interest only, or even “liar” loans, allowed sales rates to continue and prices to go up for a time.
But the rules on loans are tightening again and market watchers are calling a sea change. So, whereas perhaps in the exuberance of 2005 a person might feel they could “afford” a one million dollar property, now that same person may feel they can afford only afford a three quarter of a million dollar property. I feel that the next variable the market is going to tweak will be the price.
Clearly, a beautiful remodel, but judging FROM THE PICTURES ONLY, the kitchen and dining room look awfully small. For this price, I’d want to see a much bigger kitchen, at the least.
Greg – I’m not going to take back my “unethical” comment! The fact that you’re getting so upset over my comment and treating ME like I’m being such a bad person is very interesting to me. I made a comment on the way that you are representing your PROFESSIONAL self on this website – to act as if you are not personally involved in listings such as this, as indirectly as that may be, is disingenious.
The facts are all there, Greg, and get uncovered more and more each day (especially on Socketsite): In the past 5-10 years, realtors have propped up this market to astronomical levels that 88% of San Franciscians can NOT afford. This has put huge amounts of money in your pockets while pushing most people out of the market. A huge percentage of those who DID buy are now in foreclosure or close to it. Call THEM stupid to believe that they could afford what they bought, but I would hope that their real estate agents feel a BIT of guilt over selling it to them (do you know how many of your recent sales are in foreclosure?). Over 80% of appraisors recently acknowledged (in the Chronicle) that they had been strong-armed by realtors into inflating home’s values to meet what the realtor WANTED the house to be worth. I’ve been told by friends (who own) that I should buy too because their real estate agent could “hook me up” with a mortgage broker that could “make the number’s work for me.”(I know for certain that at least one of these was an interest-only scam). That is unethical and I don’t understand how there can be no penalties for doing this! I’m not saying that YOU’VE done this, but I don’t see you on here taking any responsibility for ill advised sellers or buyers. And this listing is CLEARLY not worth it WITHOUT a visit to Sunnyside.
If you want to continue to attack me, I encourage you to do so by e-mailing me directly. This is not a forum about ethics or a topic about Realtors. I’ve asked you once and i’ll ask you again — stop calling me unethical.
For the record – Every buyer I’ve represented in the lat 5 years stands to make a nice return on their investment when and if they decide to sell their property. Not 1 of them is in any danger of foreclosure.
Our paths will never cross RG – refrain from calling me unethical – it’s a gross mispresentation of who I am.
“In the past 5-10 years, realtors have propped up this market to astronomical levels that 88% of San Franciscans can NOT afford. This has put huge amounts of money in your pockets while pushing most people out of the market. A huge percentage of those who DID buy are now in foreclosure or close to it.”
Dear rg at April 14, 2007 6:45 PM,
As a real estate broker for 35+ years in San Francisco, I am curious to ask where did you get your facts that “a huge percentage of those who did buy are now in foreclosure or close to it.”
I want to thank you, on behalf of all realtors for giving us credit for the economic stability and growth of the Bay Area for the 5-10 years, but don’t forget the past 50 years. Because as most economists and lenders that have been making the loans that are about to be foreclosed upon, will tell you that the average annual appreciation for those 50 years has been 10% per year. Sometimes less, sometimes more.
Again on behalf of all those unethical realtors, we are taking credit for the entire technological & bio-tech revolution, venture capital and banking industries, the lack of new housing and all the other dynamic’s of the Bay Area housing markets.
If you think all buyers have been hoodwinked by the market makers, the millions of buyers that own homes in the Bay Area must all be easily influenced.
In fact, realtors are just mirrors of the economics of today.
Real Estate is “just sticks and stones”. It does not know what interest rates are, nor the incomes of San Franciscans, nor the regional, national or international economic activities, nor the cost of 2×4’s, nor the disappointment of missing the past 5 real estate markets.
Real estate is the same, like most commodities, all over the world. To give credit or disdain (“unethical”) to the market makers is short sited. Look in the mirror, and try not to miss this downturn.
Last I heard both Cal and Stanford were closing as well as most Bay Area schools that were producing the next wave of talent for our growth. I also heard a rumor that there was no more office space in the Presidio for Venture Capital offices and those on Sand Hill Road were also closing.
My bet is that the Bay Area’s economy has just begun and 10 years from now you will be even more disappointed in those “unethical realtors” and the prices of Bay Area real estate.
Frederick
First, let me say that I am not a broker, Realtor or anything of the sort. I am merely a property owner/investor. I’m not here to fuel the fire or to fan the flames, but hopefully, I’ll put a little different perspective on this.
I’m not a big fan of Realtors only because of my personal experiences with them. I am a very young property owner and have been looking to buy a second home and/or investment properties in San Francisco for the past year or so. I got turned off to Realtors when the seller’s agent tried to tell me that laminate floors were hardwood *rolls eyes* and when my own agent tried to tell me that a certain neighborhood was “up and coming” when I knew full well that that wasn’t going to happen any time in the near future. I am sure the seller’s agent must’ve thought that because I am and look young, I must be ignorant and/or naive. I am neither.
Having said that and personal issues aside, I don’t think it’s really fair to pin the pricing of the real estate market on Realtors. It’s the buyers and sellers who price the market. If we were the seller, I’m sure we would all try to sell for the highest price we can get. As the buyer, we should hold ourselves accountable for the prices we are willing to pay. The more the buyer is willing to pay, the higher it’s going to push prices up.
Also, foreclosures due to poor financing choices on the part of the buyer are not entirely the Realtor’s fault, although I have met some who have tried to pressure me into all the “creative” BS just so I can buy more properties. As buyers, we make the ultimate decisions in the property and in the financing option. Buyers have gotten greedy in the past few years when financing had become seemingly easy and “free” money, often biting off more than they can chew and being short-sighted in that they’ve bought property that they knew full well they would not be able to otherwise afford if not for the ridiculous financing schemes.
Sure, I could afford to buy some of these “delusional” properties, but that’s not how I choose to spend my money. I won’t pay for something that I do not feel is worth its price, simple as that. As a matter of opinion, I think the buyers should be held accountable for the market pricing. Realtors/sellers cannot sell anything that we’re not willing to buy … no matter the price.
I am just finishing up a 13 month full gut (though minimal exterior work) remodel of a 2750 sq ft, 3 bed/3 bath modernist single family home, admittedly with very high end everything. This is coming in it at over $500 per foot, which seems shocking. However some of my (very honest and long term) design industry friends confirm that this is really the starting point for truly high end remodels these days. Some of them have clients who spend over $1000 per foot to buy and then more than that to remodel.
“A huge percentage of those who DID buy are now in foreclosure or close to it.”
Not even close. In total 216 Notices of Default in all of San Francisco in Q1 of this year:
https://socketsite.com/archives/2007/04/san_francisco_and_california_q1_notice_of_default_activ.html
I’ll bet they’re eager to sell before the fog rolls in. It’s a cold gray windy void over there from June to September, Not so good for open houses or dining on the “patio”
Looks like the price was dropped to $1,595,000.
I would offer asking just for the amazing photo job and staging not to mention the over the top flip that house decor. Oh wait, I bailed out of San Francisco 12 months ago and bought an amazing 1912 craftman in Seattle’s Queen Anne neighborhood for a little over half the asking on this POS. I continue to be amazed by San Franciscans who think SFO is worth the cost of living premium and ridiculous taxes. There are so many better places to live.
Did I mention it rains all the time here?
Trip had it right when with “looks like every W Hotel”. I can’t imagine that the owner lives here. The only things living in that house are a lack of imagination and a developer’s fever dreams.