747 Gates: Before
Purchased as a 1980’s era occupied three-bedroom for $425,000 this past December, the South Bernal home at 747 Gates returned to the market a month ago listed as a renovated vacant contemporary home “in the heart of Bernal Heights” asking $749,000.
747 Gates: After
On Friday, the list price for 747 Gates was reduced to $679,000 ($418 per square foot). And as always, the listing quotes are the agent’s, not ours.
∙ Listing: 747 Gates (3/3) 1,623 sqft – $679,000 [MLS]

109 thoughts on “Before, After, And Now Repriced In Bernal”
  1. This ain’t even close to the “heart” of Bernal. And it looks like the entire renovation–even the front windows and garage door–came from Ikea.

  2. this is more like the pulmonary artery of Bernal. is this market location is everything… and this is as bad as it gets

  3. I agree, very Ikea… however it’s also done and move in ready which has some appeal to many people.
    I doubt the location appeals to most people, but it’s nice to have renovated properties in multiple different micro-markets.
    hard to imagine paying this much money for this location… but SFers are crazy so who knows. The seller looks like s/he may do well even if it sells at this price given their low cost of purchase.

  4. Purchase–$425K
    Remodel:–$135K (conservative: less than $100 psft and they redid the facade)
    $600K Total.
    No more than $80K for 6 months of work. Not bad, but no killing.

  5. I think you people need to develop a wider vocabulary than just comparing this to “IKEA”.
    IKEA, to my knowledge, does not sell garage doors or square bay aluminum windows. If you’re going to comment about the design elements, educate yourself about what you’re talking about.

  6. I have to laugh at the Bernal distinctions. For those of us who live north of California, this is as far away as Los Angeles.

  7. @modernqueen: I know Ikea doesn’t sell garage doors or windows, but if they did, I maintain they’d look like these…

  8. @vanillablue: you still have no idea what you’re talking about. You seem to be simply using the Ikea imagery of “simple, functional, modern and inexpensive” as a way to define these particular architectural elements.
    The glass and aluminum garage door shown is not cheap, they are well built and very appropriate for an updated, modern facade. the aluminum windows, divided into an asymmetrical grid are a perfect compliment to the square bay.
    The entire facade renovation is a vast improvement over the original, as I’m sure you will agree.

  9. I actually like the remodel. It’s tastefully done and perfectly livable. I’m starting to think everyone who posts on SS must live in designer digs based on some of the overtly critical comments. Location is not the best but don’t confuse that with the house itself…

  10. These desperate tipster numbers, always praying the developers don’t make money.
    If this sells at 679k, and they paid 425k, then they have 254k to work with. Real business people know that whatever they don’t spend belongs to them. So they hammer away at each item. Maybe they did much of the work themselves, maybe they reduce commission because one of them is a realtor.
    In any analysis of numbers, if you use full retail numbers for each expense, you’re not going to make money. Put in full retail numbers and you’ll be able to make any business model look absurd.
    In a related theme, I know a building in town that had a board of directors that was going to pay 725k for elevator maintenance; some new guys got on the board, studied the issue carefully, and realized they’d only need to pay 52k to get the same level of maintenance.

  11. The comparison to/invocation of “IKEA” in this instance is just non-specialist shorthand for “Scandinavian Modern” style furnishings and/or finishes (I’m not a designer, interior or otherwise). Most everybody gets this.
    And I agree that if Ikea did sell windows, garage doors, siding, exterior trim packages, etc., it’d look very similar to what we have here.

  12. @brahma: Well, I think you’re trying to spin this Ikea commentary into a different direction. I don’t agree with you.
    I seriously doubt if vanillablue was thinking deep about “Scandi/modern”. I suspect his/her comment was simply calling the products cheap, nothing more nothing less.

  13. Is modernqueen the new incarnation of NoeArch? Just wondering…
    And that’s not actually 80’s is it? Those windows look chintzy even for the 80’s. IKEA or not, this facade is a GREAT improvement. Goodbye cheap stucco, ugly security gate, tiny windows.

  14. Dicey location. This property borders Alemany public housing projects on Ellsworth.
    I think you would have to tour the property before making any comparisons to “Ikea” materials.
    Ikea implies cheap/chintzy. They are either IKEA or they’re not. Contemporary design doesn’t neccessarily equal IKEA.

  15. I don’t mind “Ikea” in many cases. There is ugly “Ikea” and perfectly fine “Ikea.” The kitchen and bathrooms in this place are on the ugly side whether you use the Ikea term or not. This is a crummy location, and it would not make sense to use expensive materials and finishes here. But there are cheap options that aren’t this unattractive.
    The photos are terrible. 1623 sf is perfectly decent-sized, but the place looks half that size from the photos.

  16. The kitchen looks like a hospital laboratory. And I could do without the last pic overlooking the highway which highlights the subpar location. This place is in dire need of staging so that people will potentially overlook its flaws.

  17. I’m sorry, I’m not finding it awful. So much better than the “before” facade and the laboratory kitchen at least looks easy to clean. (Though my family would probably destroy it in weeks if it is from IKEA.)
    The location is the bigger issue. I wish I could get something as nice for this price in the avenues.

  18. @modernqueen: I am no design expert and don’t claim to be one, and certainly only was using “ikea” as shorthand. I’ll happily plead guilty to oversimplifying.
    But for what it’s worth, I have an Ikea kitchen myself. I like how it looks, but it’s only been 7 years since it was installed (by the previous owner) and the cabinets are falling apart. So I don’t have any problem with Ikea as an aesthetic, but know from experience that their stuff is not durable. That would be my concern about this place, if I was interested (and given the location, I’m not).

  19. The location is plain awful. We used to live about a half a block away. The problem is the projects. There is an entrance to the projects at the end of Gates St. This house looks directly at them. The back of the house faces 280. Gates Street itself is narrow and in very bad condition. We loved our house, but I’m very happy we moved.

  20. The whole place needs a reshoot … the interior looks awful, but I do really like what they’ve done to the facade.

  21. And don’t forget to add “freeway noise ambiance” to the list of pluses of this location. A back deck- why even bother?

  22. OTOH $679k is cheap for a decent size, renovated 3/3 with parking. That’s the price of a decent 2/1 condo in the mish or west slope bernal.
    I’d think some minivan toting family will compromise on location for the house value…and they can still say they live in “bernal.”

  23. This may be the worst part of Bernal Heights, but even the best part of Bernal is totally overrated.
    It’s just the hilly part of the mission dist. It’s not a safe neighborhood and it never will be.
    IMO, you’d be better off with a crappy home in a better neighborhood.

  24. This is only $679k. I mean, how *shitty* is that location?
    Off a cliff, never-neverland/freeway embanvement?  Check.
    Close to ghetto projects?  Check. 
    Can’t walk to cortland; can’t walk to the mish. (enjoy your stroll to crescent). Check. 
    Enjoy “freeway ambience-noise” off back deck?  Check. 
    BUT STILL, a decent, renovated, 1600 sf 3/3 for $679k??  Is the market that soft for second (or third rate) homes?  This is D10 pricing!

  25. Cool house for the price. I was looking in Bernal and almost bought a house on Ellsworth, but then realized it was a one way street and my wife would have to drive along through the projects to get to our house at night every day. No thanks. But, it will sell; trust me. This price point always sells quickly. Kind of tired of the hypercritical queens that keep posting all this garbage about Nob Hill, Noe, etc., being the only real SF. Good lord, this is THE CITY; it’s full of weirdo’s which is why I would never live anywhere else!

  26. first time i’ve seen Bernal haters on here. time get out and explore the City again. just like the mission, or Potrero, there are great livable areas, and some very sketchy ones, and often times they are really close to each other. in this case, there is nothing going for this area. but put it on the west or north slope where you can walk to Cortland or the Mission – and THAT is “real” SF – ie. desirable SF for many people. and if that isn’t you AND you have to hate on it – time to move back to nebraska corn fields or whatever close minded place you’re from.

  27. … and THAT is “real” SF …
    So after years of the “real SF” contracting down to a handful of Veblen trophy properties in PH, “real” is expanding again?
    Bottom! 🙂

  28. @hangemhi: If you think Bernal Heights is a great neighborhood then you’re probably the one that’s a transplant from Nebraska.
    I was born and raised in the Mission so I think I know what I’m talking about. If you have children in Bernal Heights, as many people do, you can’t let them walk or ride their bikes anywhere out of your eyesight. It may be Real SF – whatever that is – but it’s not safe and it’s overpriced. and those are the facts.

  29. You’re in a city. It wasn’t made for carefree parenting. Only a few dead-ends streets will allow for your kids to roam free. Bernal has quite a few especially going up to BH Boulevard. This side of Gates? I wouldn’t do it.
    I am amazed at the expectations that some people have when they buy in SF and start a family. Wrap around lawn, swimming pool, nope. Even a parking and a single family home in a safe area (no transients or shady characters) commands 1.5M
    If you want a family in SF you have to compromise. Something has to give. Most of the time I see parents imposing their kids Their choice of living in the City because they selfishly want to stay where they started out as young adults. Hipsters with kids? Grown up kids with kids is more like it…
    This is a real shame for the kids even though many will turn out OK.
    Every big city that densifies loses kids. Just go with the flow, and the flow for families is often suburbia.

  30. lol,
    so your saying anyone raising kids in the city is a selfish “grown-up kid”, and the kids will turn out “okay” at best. It’s a shame everytime you see a kid in the city. Really?

  31. We’re not talking about wrap-around lawns and swimming pools, just basic safety. In about 75% of SF I would be perfectly comfortable letting an 8-year old walk a couple blocks to the store or roller skate around the block by herself. In Bernal? Nope. That’s what people are talking about here. Plenty of good neighborhoods that don’t cost $1.5mm and don’t require compromising basic safety.

  32. sparky-b,
    I am just telling you that people who have a choice and want to stay in the City do it for themselves first, their kids second.
    If kids were the highest priority, you’d move to a safe place in the fly-overs where a decent paying job will buy you literally 10 times more space and a more stable tighter knitted community.
    I grew up in a small town where all the kids would play in the street in the summer. I don’t see that in SF, especially not in places where people have lots of space. My parents made a choice and moved out of a bigger city for us. They paid for it career-wise with less prospects and lower pay.

  33. Nice price for a nicely remodeled house. It’s really too bad about the location. It does seem that things are getting better for families with young kids, it’s just that the pace of change is soooo slow.
    And,by the way, cities do not nessecarily (SP) loose kids when density increases. Vancouver is a prime example of this!

  34. I am a Bernal resident and parent. There are tons of kids in Bernal, and plenty of parents who let their kids bike around the block or go to the corner store. Parts of Bernal are less safe than others, but to say the whole neighborhood is “not safe and never will be” is a vast exaggeration at best and downright ignorant at worst. Bernal is definitely one of the more kid-friendly neighborhoods in the city–those are the facts.

  35. Wow you make flyover country sound so appealing, is it really the land of milk and honey that you describe?
    Is it really better to have a long commute and be home, maybe, for dinner so your kids can play on the street. Or is it better to have no/small commute and play with you kids more?

  36. Of course not, sparky-b.
    For most people who can afford SF and move here, this is mostly a choice. If you can pay 3 to 6K/month in housing it means you have very valuable and marketable skills. These skills could get you a similar job in another state, a smaller town. Maybe paid less, but your money would go much much further.
    You come to the city for the opportunity of doing something better, to have a lifestyle more adapted to your personality. But let’s not forget you have a choice.
    Also, in a smaller town, you’re more likely to live closer to your home. Your last point would be moot in most cases.

  37. I live in Bernal with a child. Before we had our kid about a year ago, I thought Bernal would be a great place for babies – especially seeing all of the other babies there. I have to say that I’ve been surprised by how much some of the downsides have bothered us – which I would never have thought of before the kid came. The hills are enormous, which makes taking the stroller difficult… which means you have to carry the baby everywhere unless you want to get into your car. Also, its a drag walking by some of the scary looking gangster/teenager dudes with pitbills that hang around the neighborhood when you are holding a baby. It just makes you feel uncomfortable.
    I would never consider living by the alemany projects. Check out the ingleside police department’s crime blog: http://inglesidepolicestation.blogspot.com/ It feels like the majority of incidents take place on the south (below Cortland) part of the city – and on Mission street. Although we live on the north side and our downstairs neighbor had a break in a few months ago…
    I’m not suggesting that this kind of stuff is anyone’s fault or problem (other than my own). Frankly I wish I was less uptight. But I’m glad (and lucky) that I’m just a renter in Bernal. I just don’t have the fortitude to be one of those ambitious city-dwelling parents in a ‘decent’ neighborhood. [I’m working on my wife to move to the burbs – or at some point we will probably muster up the energy to try to move into a nicer hood but in a smaller place]

  38. I think we’ve had this kids-in-the-city talk here before.
    We live in a good neighborhood in a tiny flat and walk over to Mountain Lake Park when we need a yard type experience. For us, it pretty much worked out – we have all boys, they tolerate sharing a room, they appreciate being able to be more mobile than they would have been in the suburbs. The Presidio is close enough that there are some open spaces from them to roam.
    My kids are nearly grown, I can’t honestly say I’d do it exactly the same way again. I’m jealous of friends raising kids in places like Alameda and Albany. But there are drawbacks to every situation. Not having any commute to speak of makes a huge difference, school issues and cramped conditions notwithstanding.

  39. (And no points to anyone talking about their 15 minute BART ride to the Financial District. I don’t work down there and equivalent neighborhoods near BART are just as or more expensive!)

  40. Yeah, and I’m not even that sold on big yards – nice but pretty far down on my list. We live within a very short walk of two parks with great lawns and playgrounds that put to shame any suburb or small town back yard and swingset. And we’re a pretty easy walk to about 4 others, including Golden Gate Park. And that’s before getting into the other thousand great things the city offers kids that you can’t find in small towns. And, as sparky notes, it sure is nice to be 18 minutes from office to house on public transportation.
    I agree that if you don’t make the money and a big house and big yard and driving are your top priorities, there are better options than SF. And as I’ve mentioned, if I couldn’t afford private school, I would be out of here in a second to a town with good public schools.

  41. Genuinely curious – can any of the detractors point me to a preferable 3BR SFH in SF for the same price?

  42. @vanillablue – Sounds like you’ve been drinking the Bernal kool-aid.
    If you think BH is “one of the more kid friendly neighborhoods in SF”, then you probably don’t know the City very well.
    @BernieHill – thanks for your post.
    @Ryan – yeah, the Sunset. prices vary a lot and typically decrease from inner to outer.

  43. You can routinely get 3/1’s for $700, with an extra bathroom costing you another 100k, if you’re OK with a Doelger in the Sunset.

  44. @R – I never mentioned “kids Paradise’s in SF”.
    So, if you’re are not being facetious, I would suggest Noe Valley, West Portal, Inner Sunset, Parkside, to name a few.

  45. Also Eureka Valley, Twin Peaks, Duboce Triangle, Presidio Heights, Lake, Clarendon Heights, Miraloma, Laurel Heights, and many many others.

  46. We were looking for a nice 3BR in the central Sunset in this price range recently. Everything was moldy and needed significant work and the third bedroom was in the basement and the basement had low ceilings, or if not, there were other drawbacks, like the otherwise perfect house that had no kitchen.
    Again, we would have been thrilled to find something this nice and move-in-ready.I’d love to be wrong – any listings someone wants to show me?

  47. Kthx – that’s my impression as well. Would love to see a specific listing for a preferable 3BR SF SFH at this price point.

  48. ^ that’s what I’m saying’! If you can wrap your mind around this outpost location, this is a good. Value house-wise.
    I’ve walked by here and driven by a few times. It’s weird. It feels nowhere, for sure. But, if you *really really* love that alimony farmers market, you have something to look forward to every weekend. But otherwise plan on using your car a lot. You’ll probably end up drive to cortland too- walking uphill passing crappy cresent street- just get over it (the environment will survive your frequent 6 block guilt-drive!)

  49. I get a chuckle out of people who are afraid of Bernal Heights. I’ve lived on the north Slope for 16 years and have never had a problem with crime of any sort. If you look at the crime statistics, there are some incidents on Mission Street and near the projects, but otherwise very little– mostly car break-ins, which happen everywhere in the city.

  50. Yeah, but this isn’t the North Slope. This is simply a crap location – and I don’t mean that with regards to crime and safety. It looks like you’d have to get in your car and drive to get even something as simple as a quart of milk.

  51. “It looks like you’d have to get in your car and drive to get even something as simple as a quart of milk”
    Kind of like what you have to do in Pacific Heights?

  52. No, most places in Pac Heights are usually walking distance to a corner bodega, if not a central shopping street like Union, Fillmore, Divis, Sacramento, etc.
    I’m just going off Mapjack but isn’t Cortland the nearest strip with shops?

  53. I would love to live where my kid could play stickball in the street, but I don’t see kids doing that in the suburbs any more than they do in the city.
    I know people in Los Altos who don’t even let their kids play in the front yard.

  54. I would love to live where my kid could play stickball in the street, but I don’t see kids doing that in the suburbs any more than they do in the city.
    I know people in Los Altos who don’t even let their kids play in the front yard.

    Your friends are either weirdos or you haven’t spent enough time in Los Altos or any number of other Bay Area suburbs, even ones that are far less upscale. What rationale do your friends give for not allowing it? Do they live on a busy street?

  55. Is it really better to have a long commute and be home, maybe, for dinner so your kids can play on the street. Or is it better to have no/small commute and play with you kids more?
    Ha. Remind me where all those SF $200k+/year jobs are that only require 9-5 hours again. Family dinner is weekends-only for us here and I’m sure for pretty much anyone else who makes enough to truly afford living here with kids (I think you’re kidding yourself if you think you can do it on under $300k/year and actually have a reasonable savings-to-debt ratio) — with the exception of the finance folks who are on market hours.

  56. Is it really better to have a long commute and be home, maybe, for dinner so your kids can play on the street. Or is it better to have no/small commute and play with you kids more?
    Well, if we’re to go with the popular statement here that the people who inhabit nicer southern neighborhoods that are still “real SF” (Bernal, Noe, Glen Park) work at Google and elsewhere on the Peninsula, your statement falls apart, doesn’t it?
    Again, that’s just based on the assertions here that Silicon Valley types are causing the price changes. At minimum, not everyone who lives in SF works in downtown SF.
    Second, there are closer in suburbs that have better commutes than certain parts of the city. Daly City and other Peninsula cities have a better commute to downtown SF than certain parts of the city because of BART, and so do parts of Oakland.
    Also, what shza said.

  57. Is it really better to have a long commute and be home, maybe, for dinner so your kids can play on the street. Or is it better to have no/small commute and play with you kids more?
    No “right” answer to that question, of course. It’s a matter of personal preference. For me, I hate commuting and would gladly give up the big yard for the extra 45 mins – 1 hour I get every workday with my family from a very short commute (18-20 minutes on Muni – so even with my typical 8-6 workday, I’m easily home for both breakfast and for early dinner with the family). But most of my partners – all of whom could easily afford to live in SF – have chosen to live in Marin or the East Bay to get the bigger house and bigger yard, and because they just prefer other towns to SF (so dirty, so many homeless, bad traffic). Remember that far more people in the Bay Area live outside of SF than in SF, even among those who could afford either option. I love living near work, but most others have higher priorities. Nothing wrong with that.
    One thing I don’t like about Bernal and a number of other SF neighborhoods is you have a comparatively lousy commute but don’t even get the big house/yard you would get in the burbs or much of a retail/shopping district within walking distance. And you get the lousy SF public schools to boot.

  58. One thing I don’t like about Bernal and a number of other SF neighborhoods is you have a comparatively lousy commute but don’t even get the big house/yard you would get in the burbs
    This. We moved from Bernal to Piedmont two years ago and our commute to the FiDi was just about cut in half (45 min –> 25 min). And we have more space and a usable public school system.

  59. Cortland is pretty walkable. I used to do it all the time.
    I’m sorry to say but the problem is really the projects. There are constantly groups of kids hanging out on the corner of Ellsworth and Crescent and their cars frequently go up and down the street. Sometimes they park at the end of Gates. Do I like how I sound? No. But being mugged on Crescent one block from my house on Gates, getting hit on the head by a bottle and then requiring several stitches at SF General changed my mind.

  60. There you go again with your claim that you can drive from Piedmont to FiDi in 25 minutes. When exactly do you do this shza? Certainly not during rush hour.
    And if you take the bus, how long does the walk from the Transbay Bus Terminal to the FiDi add to the trip?

  61. NVJ, we’ve been over this already. You can check the ACTransit schedules yourself. The bus has its own entrance ramp onto the Bay Bridge. The bus stop is 3 blocks from my office. It adds 5-6 minutes. (Though walking from other public transportation would also add time.) The bus stop in Piedmont is 30 yards from my front door. No transfers.
    I still fail to understand why this set of facts angers you so much.
    OT, this part of Bernal is *terrible.* But it’s ridiculous to say you couldn’t let your 8 year old walk two blocks on Cortland, let alone in the streets north of there.

  62. My deepest apologies, NVJ. If you look at my name link, my commute home at rush-hour (6:30pm bus to Oakland/Grand) is actually 26 minutes, not 25. You win the prize.

  63. So it is 31-32 minutes right? 26 minutes on the bus plus 5-6 minutes walking to your office.
    Plus you have to add in waiting for the bus, which is at least a minute or two. I can’t imagine you sprint for the bus stop when you see it arrive, though it is perhaps possible.
    I am not angry about anything, I just think you should make an host apples to apples comparison. But yes, the AC Transit bus from Piedmont is faster than two buses on Muni. Especially if you live 30 yards from the bus stop! Not half though, you have to admit, more like 2/3.
    Still a huge improvement.
    Plus you get Piedmont schools, which is a real bonus for most people. Good for you!

  64. I think NVJ’s point is that most folks don’t live next door to a bus stop (or would want to) and many folks don’t work within 3 blocks of the Transbay Terminal. So maybe you can make it in 30 minutes (adding time to walk on both sides to AC’s scheduled times) but it’s certainly not the norm.
    That said, commuting downtowm from Bernal certainly has it’s challenges.

  65. And my point was only that. Even if you don’t have my exact circumstances (though the 3 blocks from the terminal is going to be true for anyone who works near Embarcadero BART — and even less if you work south of Market), there are a whole host of places outside SF where you will have a quicker commute to the FiDi than you would from Bernal.
    Period. It was really responsive to sparky b’s misplaced comment about a leisure/commute trade-off in the context of a thread about a home in a horribly inconvenient location. You’d get no trade off buying a place like this — it’s lose-lose.

  66. Cycling from the middle of Cortland to the FiDi should take you less than 30 minutes if you know how to get all the Folsom lights right. Then again, I have done it just a couple of times and never during rush hour.
    Of course the way back is not for the faint of heart. The hill at Folsom is a tough one.

  67. Cycling from the middle of Cortland to the FiDi should take you less than 30 minutes if you know how to get all the Folsom lights right. Then again, I have done it just a couple of times and never during rush hour.
    Sure but then you need to add the additional shower/change-clothes-once-you-get-to-work-all-sweaty time to your commute time. And have a closet full of work-appropriate clothes (on hangers) stashed in your office, if your place of business adheres to any kind of dress code. Also sucks if it’s during the half a year of rain.
    This particular place is also down a steep hill from Cortland to begin with.

  68. You wouldn’t go that way from there. From there most people would cut through whatever access roads run along Alemany, to Bayshore, cut through some side roads to 3rd, and then 3rd on in.

  69. Having lived in Bernal (north slope), I will confirm the following.
    1. Commuting downtown from Bernal sucks. It’s either a long walk from 24th Street BART or a transfer.
    2. This particular location double sucks. It’s not the “nice” side of Bernal, you’d have to drive your car most places, and the projects are nearby. I usually discount some posters’ reflexive security issues, but in this case I wouldn’t.
    It’s depressing that three or four years into a housing crisis, this is still one of the few places you can find an SFR in this price range in SF.

  70. I have lived on the south slope of Bernal Heights since 1989 (except for a recent five-year sojourn in Paris, France). Since returning about six months ago, I have been living very close to this location (south of Crescent but further to the west) with my grown daughter and her two young children.
    I raised a daughter just south of Cortland near the library. In those days, that location was more problematic than now (lots of drug dealing and occasional gun play).
    Having said that, Bernal is a great neighborhood–including the south slope. And, yes, it is kid-friendly. Bernal is NOT crime ridden and has more of a true neighborhood feel than any neighborhood in San Francisco IMO.
    However, I do agree that I would not live on this particular block because of it’s proximity to the projects. (Where we are is fine but–again IMO–east of Bache or Andover is just too close.) Incidentally, in general, the south slope is nicer to live in than the north slope.

  71. You can’t find a 3/2 in the Piedmont school district in this price range either.
    You can (and I did) as a rental. Bigger too. My monthly payments are actually materially less than a buyer’s at this price would be. Granted I got a below-market steal; but perseverance pays off.

  72. I don’t think anyone is equating Bernal Heights with Hells Kitchen. But the point I’ve attempted to make is that BH is overrated, overpriced, and relatively speaking – not safe.
    No offense but if seems as though transplants or ex-pats are the only people that think BH is a great neighborhood. If you grew up in the City, then you know better.

  73. Well, as far as I’m concerned, everywhere in San Francisco is overrated, overpriced and relatively speaking–not safe.
    I spent all of the 80s living in the Inner Mission and before that spent years living in Noe Valley and Cow Hollow. I stand by my assertion that Bernal is a lot nicer place to live than any of those neighborhoods.
    And, as far as your assertion that anyone who grew up here knows better, I actually know a fair number of youngish people (35-50) who grew up on the hill and have bought houses here, are currently raising kids here and actually are quite passionate about the neighborhood. So not all natives think there are better neighborhoods for the price.
    Different strokes for different folks.

  74. “If you grew up in the City, then you know better.”
    Ah, well, if you grew up in the City and still think Bernal is like it was 30 years ago, then yes, you would not like it very much.

  75. I don’t think anyone is equating Bernal Heights with Hells Kitchen
    I think in a sense that people are indeed doing that. The thing is that you neither know what “Hell’s Kitchen” has become, nor do you know what Bernal Heights is nowadays.

  76. Sure renting is cheaper than buying. But is renting cheaper than renting?
    You are following my “Plan B” shza, which is what I intended to do if I could not get our children into a decent public school in Ess Eff. But we got Mandarin Immersion and are pretty excited about it. I still might be following you over to the sunny side of the Bay if things don’t work out.
    What do you think of the schools in Piedmont? Are you happy with them? Are they welcoming to mixed race kids?

  77. SS today: a listing for the same price in a far better location.
    I think you were aware of the distinction I was trying to make. Ironically, today’s gentrified Hell’s Kitchen probably has a lot in common with Bernal Heights; overrated, overpriced and not safe.
    Also, Ironically, having been born in the Mission (19th&guerrero) 45 years ago to Irish immigrants, the Mission neighborhood, unlike Hell’sKitchen of yesteryear, was devoid of gangs, clean and safe.
    Actually, the Mission Dist has deteriorated, not improved, over the past 30 years and that includes BH. And if you honestly think BH is a nicer neighborhood than Noe Valley and Cow Hollow then I am afraid the Bernal kool-aid has done irrevocable damage to your brain.

  78. “Actually, the Mission Dist has deteriorated, not improved, over the past 30 years”
    Is that really your opinion? You can’t think of, I don’t know, 80 to 95 as one thing, and 95 to now as another? I can’t speak to the first part of those 30 years. But I doubt many would seriously argue the point that the Mission is not better now than in the early 90s.

  79. To be more specific, the Mission District declined precipitously during the 1970s,80s and has never really recovered. I don’t beleive it’s solely my opinion.

  80. Just needed to chime in here – I’ve been posting using this handle for years. The posts above on this thread should not be construed to be from the same BernalDweller that has posted previously. I’m a partnered gay man, have lived in BH since 2005.
    Just want to be clear if someone is searching on the handle. Thanks.

  81. ^ same here.
    As previous poster said, the mish went bad early 80’s to late 90’s, then hit an upward swing. Now it’s a great, diversified hood IMO.

  82. Revisionist. ^ The gang injunction has made the last four years of incredible change possible, one. And the need for an injunction in the first place had everything to do with the idiotic asylum policy.That was a citywide policy which disproportionately effected the Mission.

  83. So there!
    It’s obvious to anyone Locally that the mission has improved significantly since the late 90’s. Only a fool would try and argue otherwise. Shees!

  84. Haha. Honestly, I dated a girl for a couple years whose dad was a Swede born in the Mish back in the early ’40s. He told stories of halcyon days of yore too. That’s why I feel as if you have to say that anecdotal takes at the end of the day are all relative. But the mid 90s to now RE +restaurant scene transformation is not debatable, imo.

  85. Of course, if you’re talking restaurants and clubs then there’s no doubt there’s been a transformation. But I’m talking about safety.
    If the safety of the mission has improved since the late 90’s then why would we need a gang injunction in 2007 ?
    The impetus for the gang injunction in the Mission was warring between the Nortenos and Surenos and not the result of the sanctuary city ordinance. These injunctions are not created or issued willy-nilly. Only in neighborhoods where the level of gang violence warrants it. BV-HP, WA and the MD are the only three in SF.
    I’m not using anecdotal evidence from my grandparents. I’m talking about my own experience. I was born in the Mission, not the mish, and my uncle owned a bar on mission st. for 30 years.
    The Mission is a crappy neighborhood compared to what it once was – and that’s a fact. nuffsed

  86. “clubs” ? What clubs? Tell me one Mission club besides SOM, which you probably did not know about until you just read it. You’re woefully out of touch, and now I see it again.
    Again with the gang injunction as problem, not solution? And now willy-nilly linking the Western Addition and Bayview/Hunter’s Point too?
    FYI, the Norteno Sureno problem was going on for over a decade. It was worsened by the sanctuary ordinance. That’s a fact. That is not arguable. Cities are living and breathing things. The Norteno Sureno development was an unfortunate turn of events for San Francisco, indeed for many municipalities in California over the past 20 years or so, and the sanctuary ordinance worsened it. Ask any small business owner in the Mission. They will tell you the exact same.
    I am speaking from my experience as well. I have lived in, worked, and owned property in and around the Mission and Bernal Heights for over 16 years. Well after you fled, it seems. The individual I described would have never used the word, “Mish.” That was my phrasing and certainly not his, as he has passed away long ago anyway. You are out of touch, whether born there, or not. Guess what? A lot of older Irish and Swedish folks still talk about “Eureka Valley” “before the gays came in” too. Funny you should go to the language card. I cut you some slack with your Bernal Heights “Hell’s Kitchen” (Hell’s Kitchen as a bad neighborhood being an anachronism by about 20 years) take in the first place. The native son card earns you five minutes of respect or so, and it has expired.

  87. What, Bruno’s is not a “club”?
    I may have moved out of the mission many years ago but I’ve lived in the City my entire life. I have friends in Bernal and I frequent Valencia street.
    I was going to cut you some slack but… you didn’t know what the sanctuary city ordinance was called until I mentioned it. And btw, it’s still in effect, so I suggest you bone-up on what it does and doesn’t do. And if you really think the MD is a safe neighborhood then you probably don’t read the newspaper.
    I’m a big proponent of gang injunctions and I hope it turns things around in the mission but it has a long way to go. As you know, there is a lot of new construction in the area with many new MR and BMR units coming online; which sholud have a positive affect. Maybe someday the misson could once again be considered safe.
    FYI-the native son card never expires.

  88. I guess Bruno’s technically is a club. I regard it as a bar that’ll never solve its size problem until it is one big room, but I digress.. Anyhow, I didn’t know what the sanctuary thing was called, and that is why I introduced it into the discussion. Really? “Ordinance,” “measure,” whatever. And where did you read me saying it is over? (Tho IMO the winds are changing)
    I for one didn’t call the Mission “safe.” It isn’t perfectly safe and as the densest area west of the Mississippi, and with all walks of life living inside its borders, you need to bear that in mind. But its safer than North Beach, IMO. That said, when I see young women jogging at night with ipod earbuds in, sometimes I am like “whoa. Glad I’m not your dad.”
    Anyway, as I said earlier, cities change. The Mission has undergone tremendous change in the past five years, even. And FYI the MS-13 (mara salvatrucha) gang is currently being tried. They are the very 20th @ Mission gangsters who cause the most problems. Like 36 of them.

  89. “The impetus for the gang injunction in the Mission was warring between the Nortenos and Surenos ”
    Apparently this gang war is still going on.
    “Puch-Tzek, who at 12:30 a.m. Tuesday had just gotten off work from the 19th and San Carlos restaurant, was smoking a cigarette with two co-workers when two men in their mid-20s approached the group. The suspects, using a derogatory word for Sureños, asked who the workers claimed, Corrales said.
    When the victim made it clear that he claimed no gang, one of the suspects shot him in the face and then fled with his accomplice west on 19th Street.”

  90. Yes, and yesterday six MS-13 20th st Sureno higher-ups were convicted in federal court. An additional 18 had already pleaded guilty. If you read somebody saying that the problem is solved, anf that senseless gang violence is a thing of the past, then please point that post out.

  91. Crime is much much lower in The Mission and in San Francisco in general than it was 22 years ago. The homicide rate peaked in San Francisco in 1993, when it was 17.5 per 100,000 residents, which is pretty much what Oakland’s homicide rate is now.
    That’s right, San Francisco 20 years ago was about as dangerous as Oakland is now.
    The murder rate today is less than 1/3 that it was in 1993. I don’t know if it is 1/3 lower in The Mission but it seems to me that The Mission has gotten safer faster even than the rest of The City. It was pretty dicey walking around The Mission at night in the late 80’s and early 90’s.

  92. Yes, SF is indeed a very safe city. But the Mission is one of the few neighborhoods where random, very violent crime is still a real problem.

  93. As noted above, the sale of 747 Gates closed escrow today with a reported contract price of $665,000 or $410 per square foot for the recently renovated home.

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