Public records suggest the Esprit Park two-bedroom known as 875 Indiana #515 sold for $1,250,000 in November of 2008, the same year the San Francisco Business Times named Esprit Park its “New Community of the Year.”
It’s now two years later and the top floor condo is back on the market and listed for $950,000 (24 percent under its New Community of the Year price). As we noted in 2008 with respect to a top floor sister unit which had been listed for $1,095,000 that November:
While asking at least $105,000 less than “similar units” in the development, after a month on the market the listing for that investor owned and “insatiable” two-bedroom at Esprit Park has been withdrawn. As always, another data point for plugged-in people.
∙ Listing: 875 Indiana #515 (2/2.5) – $950,000 [MLS]
∙ Not So Quick For That “Insatiable” Homes On Esprit Park Flip (#S514) [SocketSite]
∙ A Quick Friends And Family Esprit Park Flip? [SocketSite]
My opinion (similar to my opinion in 08) is that this is still overpriced. The nighborhodd hasn’t improved since 2008 and the market is in much worse condition.
I think this will sell for under $850K
with 20% down ($180K), the mortgage would still be near $4500/mo + $450/mo for HOA = $4850/mo
Can anyone imagine paying more than $2700 to rent a similar unit in that neighborhood? and putting up $4K for deposit vs. $180K for DP
[Editor’s Note: With respect to Esprit Park rents: The Parc Esprit (840 Minnesota): 30 Percent
SoldLeased.]This complex is a bit too close to the highway for my taste. Otherwise, it’s pretty nice.
I’ve been following rents on CL. In regards to Spncer’s question, yes, renting a similar 2 bedroom would be over $2700 in that neighborhood. One bedrooms are well above $2000.
I can’t believe someone would even pay $850k – it’s in Dogpatch! The new development nearby at 638 19th Street just sold a 3/2 for $685k in December.
I live in Dogpatch, and have actually been in that unit. As we know, not all “penthouse” units are the same, and in my opinion, this unit is one of the most prime spots in the whole development. Rents in this neighborhood are actually (surprisingly) high; I guess it’s due to Caltrain/MUNI proximity. Call me crazy (I have certainly seen people call each other much, much worse things on [gasp] this very website), but I actually think getting this unit at $950 would be a steal.
You are not including property tax of close to $1000 a month minus the tax deduction off the mortgage. Property tax deduction is usually wiped out by AMT for people who can qualify for a jumbo loan. True out of pocket is around $4500 a month to own. To make it rent neutral – say even at $3500 a month, the place would have to sell at around $700,000. It may get there eventually…
“To make it rent neutral – say even at $3500 a month, the place would have to sell at around $700,000. It may get there eventually”
There is no way someone pays $3500/mo to rent this place.
“There is no way someone pays $3500/mo to rent this place.”
I beg to differ. If a 2/1 unit built in 1924 located at Potrero Ave and 20th st can fetch $2,995 in rent. It’s not unreasonable to think that a relatively new and likely bigger 2/2.5 condo in Dogpatch can get $3,500.
I’d want to know what the square footage is, but if it includes parking and the building amenities I’d say it’s possible that this place could get $3500 per month.
Considering I was paying $3200/mo for a 2/2/2pkg in Russian Hill with back alley views etc., $3500/mo for this way nicer (and apparently bigger) place doesn’t seem to be a stretch at all.
I am starting to wonder if some of the commenters on this blog (Spencer, tipster, ex-SFer etc.) even live in SF at all, or have ever lived here.
How can you compare Russian Hill to Dogpatch ?
I live in Pac heights and pay much less. And I know lots of people who live in very nice 2bdroom apts for less than $2600 in much nicer neighborhoods. you can rent a 2bdr in infiniti or rincon hill for less than $3500
On the question of rent, $3500 is very doable for this place. Dogpatch is (for lack of a better term) “up and coming”, and a lot of young people who move to SF think Russian Hill is kinda boring.
It was up and coming 10 years ago already. The current crisis has postponed that process until the next upswing brings a new wave of change.
Paying a premium rent for what may-or-may-not-happen to the neighborhood in the distant future is a bit silly. These areas should be at a discount because they are less desirable than others.
“Dogpatch is (for lack of a better term) “up and coming”.
I moved to SF in 1997 and it was “up and coming then” While it has changed in the past 14 yrs, it hasn’t changed that much. I would think Dogpatch is more boring than Russian Hill as there is not much around.
I’m really bullish on Dogpatch. They have some really cool spots to eat and drink including Serpentine, Skool, Yield etc. Peninsula access is also excellent. Comparing neigborhoods like Pac Heights is really not applicable. There are certain people who choose to live in the southern/eastern parts of the city like Mission, Bernal, Glen Park, Noe, Potrero etc. because it is clearly more appealing to them.
While Russian Hill may be “boring” to some young 20 somethings, it is certainly a heck of a lot nicer and closer to lots of fun things to do than Dogpatch is. Young people who don’t want to be in a nabe like RH will live in the Mission or South Beach or Soma. Dogpatch is the hinterlands — there’s nothing to do there. I would say “up and coming” is even a stretch.
Dogpatch can certainly be called “boring” compared to 1997, I think that’s what happens between “scary,” and “much around.”
^ There’s nothing boring about losing $350k in a little over two years, if it sells here of course.
Ah, sweet schadenfreude.
I am starting to wonder if some of the commenters on this blog (Spencer, tipster, ex-SFer etc.) even live in SF at all, or have ever lived here.
Uh… Jimmy? this may shock you, but I, “EX-SFer” no longer live in SF!
otherwise I might call myself “currently SF-er”, or maybe “super cool SF dude” or “Awesome SFer” something like that!
🙂
as for ever living in SF:
not sure which of my posts makes you think I have never lived in SF. is it the part where I discussed living near 3rd and Parnassus, or 9th and Irving, or how I grew up in Tenderloin? or how one of my favorite corners is 4th and Henry? or why Inner Sunset is da bomb despite the fog?
none of these seems particularly ripe for “faking” SF street cred to me but whadda I know?
perhaps it’s because I have discussed my surprise of Noe turning into a “prime” nabe when many of us remember its more humble roots?
or because I don’t fall into the “SF is perfect in every way” and talk about things like how the streetscape is too much concrete and not enough green and trees?
Do I need to revert to talking about SoMa as “south of the slot” to get my street cred? or about the special SF yeast used to make SF Sourdough? or Lawrence Ferlinghetti?
in the end, if I never lived there I’d probably never post on socketsite. but if I did I’d call myself “SF admirer” or something.
anonymous board man, no reason to lie about something so stupid as residency.
The only thing you have to worry about ex-SFer is that Jimmy tries to steal your handle since he bought out of the city.
Uh…sorry to go off topic here but did anyone notice the photo of the bathroom with the towel hanging all wet and soggy over the shower curtain rod ? Why would a professional photographer take a photo like that and the agent allowing it on the MLS ?? If I were the owner……….not happy.
Here’s a 2 bd 2 bath apt in Dogpatch asking $3700:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/2232610799.html
$3500 rent for this place would be about right give or take 10%.
A few months back (at least 6) I checked out Parc Esprit and they were asking something like $3700 for a pretty nice 2.5/2, the top of the line they offered, and it was in the less desirable North building (of course), and not a top floor unit. I don’t know if they got any takers, but assuming this for-sale unit could rent for something in that neighborhood seems right to me. In fact, *I* would pay it, given the chance 🙂 Buying it at that price is another matter…
I also feel compelled to speak up in defense of Dogpatch, which I really like and enjoy hanging out in. It’s tremendously convenient to Mission Bay (jobs), the freeways (jobs) and Caltrain (jobs). And the dining and entertainment options have actually improved over the last few years despite the souring economy. Sure, it lacks the charm and views of a Russian Hill, but IMO has considerably more character, and the commute to the peninsula is far superior.
I viewed the unit next to this in 08. What disappointed me most about Esprit Park is that those courtyard views instead feel like a voyeur’s dream of seeing simultaneously into all of your neighbors’ homes across the way. The deck is also less than private.
Nobody mentioned HOA special assessments in their cost calculations. My guess would be that this development is ripe for them with its varied architecture and the fact that the developers struggled to get it done financially.
Rents on craigslist as a barometer?
I’ve been looking at rentals recently on craigslist and I also have three friends who have rented places in sf over the last couple of months– and I question the rent prices on craigslist above a certain threshold. Craigslist seems to have become dominated by three or so brokers who seem to overlist the prices of places that are over $2500 o0r $3000. I’ve even seen the same place listed by two different brokers– for $8500 and $9500 with both implying room to move lower when you called up.
My sample set is small. Anyone else have thoughts on whether or not CL asking prices are an accurate gauge of how much places actually will rent for? Craigslist seems to define the rental market but CL is dominated by a handful of brokers who have the time to spam CL and thus control the perception of what you need to pay to get x bedrooms in whatever neighborhood. That said, in the few examples I have,apartments above a certain minimum threshold have room to rent below the asking price.
Side question– can they actually marginally drive rentals higher by controlling the perception of how much an x br in neighborhood x goes for– within someone’s ability to pay.
I think that any craigslist rental add that is posted daily (Wavro, etc) is extremely suspicious. This does seem to be typical of expensive places, particularly house rentals. I really don’t get the approach, except for the case where the choice is to sell or rent, and there is therefore a “wishing price” for rent that depends on the greater fool theory.
In the case of more vanilla rentals, I assume that landlords are simply very scared to get stuck long term in a low rent (rent control) and therefore hold out for months and months for higher rentals (again, the greater fool). But it seems crazy.
When I was looking for rentals, I did see the same units posted every day for months…. you’ve got to take these prices with a very large grain of salt. The “market” price is the ones that show up for a day or two and disappear…..
If you’re a landlord that has a mortgage to pay on the property for rent, if you are smart, you will be very motivated to get (appropriate) tenants in ASAP. (Note: Prospective landlords sometimes fail to understand there is no direct relationship between your mortgage payment and the fair rental value of your home.) Let me give you an example. If you think your property is worth $2700 per month but the market is dictating that at $2500 per month it rents immediately, you would be silly to price at $2700. Just one month of vacancy is going to take you 24 months to recoup the opportunity cost of not pricing lower at $2500. I’ve found the best strategy is to make your best estimate of what the prevailing rents are for your type of property / neighborhood and then price 1-2% lower.
Based on anecdotal experience, I would say that rents lsit on CL are generaly 20-25% higher than apts actually rent for. No one I know has paid asking rent price. It’s always negotiable, but especially in the last few years.
^ I meant 12 months in the example above. I’m sure 45y.o MH can add some additional perspective…
I recently rented my place last November. It’s a SFH so that market is a little different than apartments which are more plentiful. Anyway, I rented it at asking and within 3 days of listing. I had 7 qualified applicants. The demand is out there if you price correctly. If you’re not getting any interest within a week you are clearly overpriced.
My anecdotal experience is that the ratio of actual to asking rents changes over time.
Pre-2000 I wouldn’t consider it unusual to have multiple tenants clamoring for a spot and for rents to go over asking.
In the depths of the dot com bust, 2003-2004, I would guess that most people paid under asking with steep cuts 30-40% not being out of the question.
I have less visibility now, but it wouldn’t seem wildly off that many people are renting below ask.
There is some rental data out there, some for asking price, some for rents and some for effective rents which amortizes out freebies (like no rent for a few months) over the expected rental life.
My impression is that commercial landlords are more prone to throw in free rent or other incentives before dropping the price. Individual landlords don’t always have the cash reserve to tolerate much vacancy loss so even if they are subject to rent control they can be more willing to drop prices to have a shorter vacancy period.
As a side note, this can make people’s self reported price to rent ratios suspect. Someone who was set on buying and just did a cursory CL check can come up with a much different price/rent then what would actually be achieved by a diligent search.
Wow. Comparing Nob Hill to Dogpatch is like comparing apples and oranges.
And let me tell you, I like it that that’s the case. I bought at Esprit in late 2009. I didn’t buy because I thought the area was up and coming. I bought because I love the neighborhood as it is.
This was after living in Noe Valley for four years and realizing that the uniform demographic just wasn’t for me. Things I love about the neighborhood:
* The industrial feel. I realize this isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but it reminds me of Chicago (where I’m originally from). It was never my desire to live in a purely residential neighborhood.
* I’m a 5 minute walk from the waterfront. Almost everyday, I go on a half an hour walk up China Basin Way. Over time, I’ve gotten to know the guys who hang out at the fishing pier. Nice guys. It’s always fun to see what’s currently sitting in the dry docks. A couple of weeks ago, it was a huge cruise ship up from San Diego.
* Great restaurants. I love Piccino. Nicest people. Serpentine, Kitchenette, Mr. and Mrs Miscellaneous, Just for You, Hard Knox. We may not have a ton of restaurants, but the ones we do have are fantastic.
* The people. People in this neighborhood say ‘hi’ to you on the street. That rarely happened to me in Noe. Some of the people who live here are from families that have lived her for generations. There’s a very strong sense of community here. It was a pleasant surprise. Also, we have rich, poor, and everything in between. Different ethnicities. I love the mix.
* Easy access to transportation. My boyfriend takes Caltrain everyday to Palo Alto. It’s so much nicer than driving. We’re also close to 280 and by extension, 101. Sadly, the T Line could use some improvement.
* Interesting businesses. Poco Dolce makes and sells their fabulous chocolate on 3rd street. We had an old map of SF framed at a place on 3rd and 22nd. Custom furniture design at Sphere. A tactical gear shop on 22nd (my bf is really into high end flashlights). We keep on discovering new things in the American Industrial Center.
Piccino will soon be moving into a new, much larger space. I went on a tour yesterday and it’s looking pretty nice. I can’t wait to see how it looks when finished.
A new cafe will be going into the old space. There will soon be a new brewery and gastropub. Construction has begun on a new condo/retail complex on 3rd near 20th. Salesforce is moving their headquarters close by. UCSF construction continues.
There is a ton of change afoot. While I welcome the possibility of increased property values, I’m a little wary of the change. I’ve enjoyed living in this part of SF that doesn’t exactly feel like ‘The real SF.’ This place has a really nice mellow feel. But, what can you do? Change is inevitable.
thanks- was curious to get other people’s experiences on this and it does apply to this discussion and others in buy vs rent comparisons. I agree tc_sf that it changes over time dictated by the strength of the market, economy etc.
But what I’m talking about is less about the strength/weakness of the rental market and just about a secular shift. A few brokers now control most of the CL listings because they have the time to spam. Follow a few random listings and check back every so often and you see the same places listed for many months. Call up on the places that are 5k and up– there is definitely a lot of room on some of those. To the casual observer, it’s not a good indication of the price of actual rent to use in a rent vs buy comparison.
My experience working with one of the rental brokers who posts pretty regularly on CL (not Wavros, someone else) was that there was room to negotiate on the price. The price listed on Craigslist was about 10-15% more than what we actually ended up paying.
Re: lurker’s post. I think you meant RH, not NH. Most of Nob Hill (IMO) is a lot less desirable than Russian Hill.
lurker, I was in contract for a 1/1.5 at Esprit in early 08 before the thing was finished. Luckily they took till fall 08 to complete because my income changed in a bad way in the fall, like many people, and I had to back out. Plus I was paying too much in retrospect. That hindsight thing is handy! And if I hadn’t backed out the last few years would have been tight. But I would move there in an instant now if things made sense for me.
You’re right about the area, it’s very friendly. When I was touring the building in early 08 more than a few neighbors came up to us and said hi and welcomed us to the hood. We also took a city walking tour of the area and got lots of cool history. What few bars/restaurants/stores are there all give you the feeling that you’ll know the owners/employees by name soon enough. If I remember, the owner of Piccino is related to a developer at Esprit Park too. And I met the developers of Esprit as well and they were cool. But the RE agents they had selling the place were not. They were clueless. Really bad. I think it switched companies a few times since then. Anyway, I really do wish I could have lived there. I was looking forward to it.
You can’t convince people the area is cool and it’s not something you should defend. Some folks just think other areas of the city are superior and won’t accept the fact that the Dogpatch can have a legitimate appeal to a some. This despite the high rents paid in the area.
Oh, and if you ever need information on the area, a great resource is Spencer who started off this thread. He knows exactly how many piles of dog crap and the number of needles you’ll find in the park, how many car break-ins there have been, and how many homeless frequent the area. He has a knack for that. It’s like “Spidey Sense” but “Spencer Sense” instead. At least he did back when I was commenting on SS about Esprit Park and my experience and my desire to live there. I thought I was adding value. I guess he thought he was adding value too.
I’ll go back to lurking now. I just had to chime in and let you know I dig your hood and your building and I’m jealous of your purchase because I’m sure you got a better deal than I what I was in contract for. And of course I wanted to give a shout out to Spencer. Hi buddy!
Isn’t there some sort of redevelopment plan in the works for the abandoned waterfront buildings?
^^^ If you mean Pier 70, then yes :
https://socketsite.com/archives/2010/09/now_calling_all_developers_for_san_franciscos_pier_70.html
“At least he did back when I was commenting on SS about Esprit Park and my experience and my desire to live there. I thought I was adding value. I guess he thought he was adding value too. ”
I did add value. i told people like you that the places were overpriced. You got lucky and backed out. Others, who didn’t get a chance to back out, have now lost their entire downpayment and made a bad investment (at least for 7-8yrs horizon)
I am living with my boyfriend in an Esprit Park unit very close to the unit that’s now on sale. I refused to think I would like it at Esprit – I own a super-cute top-floor condo on the top of Potrero Hill. But, I have to confess, I love living at Esprit. It’s gorgeous — the courtyard may appear to be TMI, but at night all the glowing floor-to-ceiling windows are totally cozy and reveal uniformly well decorated interiors (the development definitely appeals to a specific type of people – young-ish people with stylish yet understated tastes). There’s tons of light due to the excellent design. It’s eco-friendly, and the heated floors have made me regret checking into nice hotels on vacation.
The neighborhood is great – a good number of good restaurants, and more being built (a new pub by Magnolia folks). It’s close to miles of waterfront running, which I love, and it’s incredibly convenient to various neighborhoods in SF, but also to the East Bay (80 is two stoplights), and the Peninsula (101S and 280 are stop signs away).
Like others have pointed out, Dogpatch is probably not for everyone. And that’s fine. But I wish that people wouldn’t be so mean-spirited and try to denigrate the neighborhood. It’s a great area, and it’s only going to get better – the entrance to the new UCSF hospital is 1.5 blocks down the street, and the America’s Cup will be down the waterfront as well. So it’s all good. And whoever purchases this unit will have lots of happy neighbors welcoming them.
I am living with my boyfriend in an Esprit Park unit very close to the unit that’s now on sale. I refused to think I would like it at Esprit – I own a super-cute top-floor condo on the top of Potrero Hill. But, I have to confess, I love living at Esprit. It’s gorgeous — the courtyard may appear to be TMI, but at night all the glowing floor-to-ceiling windows are totally cozy and reveal uniformly well decorated interiors (the development definitely appeals to a specific type of people – young-ish people with stylish yet understated tastes). There’s tons of light due to the excellent design. It’s eco-friendly, and the heated floors have made me regret checking into nice hotels on vacation.
The neighborhood is great – a good number of good restaurants, and more being built (a new pub by Magnolia folks). It’s close to miles of waterfront running, which I love, and it’s incredibly convenient to various neighborhoods in SF, but also to the East Bay (80 is two stoplights), and the Peninsula (101S and 280 are stop signs away). And CalTrain is awesome.
Like others have pointed out, Dogpatch is probably not for everyone. And that’s fine. But I wish that people wouldn’t be so mean-spirited and try to denigrate the neighborhood. It’s a great area, and it’s only going to get better – the entrance to the new UCSF hospital is 1.5 blocks down the street, and the America’s Cup will be down the waterfront as well. So it’s all good. And whoever purchases this unit will have lots of happy neighbors welcoming them.
^ That was almost believable until you brought up the America’s Cup.
Every realtor in town thinks people will buy a home just to watch two weeks of final races that almost none of us have ever bothered to watch in 33 prior races and almost none of us would ever drive as far as San Jose to see. And it’s not like someone in the Richmond district on the other side of town won’t be able to go to the waterfront if they want to.
I’m shocked the realtors in the Richmond don’t point out that you can wake up early and watch the garbage collectors and street sweepers from your front window!
OK. I guess my plea for civility didn’t work very well. I don’t think I was asking you, tipster, to fork over tons of money to move to Dogpatch. I was just pointing out my own perceived pluses to being a Dogpatch resident.
You want to be unnecessarily biting, please go ahead. I will still be happy in my BF’s neighborhood.
Tipster’s behavior and the long tether he gets is what this site is about nowadays. You might say, yes, but Prime used to do the same things except the opposite back in 2006. Well, I wasn’t around. I just see Tipster’s mistake-laden baiting, daily, and it isn’t any good.
Why all the back-sniping here? Dogpatch “up and coming” or “arrived” or “lousy”. Who cares?
People who bought here in 2008 are down 25-35%. That’s the important fact. The market has spoken and it’s answered all the important questions.
Oh, and nice save getting out of that terrible investment, Boo.
I haven’t felt the need to change my screen name 6 times.
#JustSayin
You should have.
Oh, come on fluj. If you can’t spot the shilling in the double-post by Esprit resident/Dogpatch resident then you’re just being willfully blind. “at night all the glowing floor-to-ceiling windows are totally cozy and reveal uniformly well decorated interiors.” And “It’s eco-friendly, and the heated floors have made me regret checking into nice hotels on vacation.” And “the development definitely appeals to a specific type of people – young-ish people with stylish yet understated tastes.”
Puh-leeze. Can’t realtors even pretend to write in anything other than marketing brochure tones? Tipster was right to call out such obvious disingenuity. I’m happy to have the realtors weigh in, and it can add a lot, but not when it is just a silly puff piece like this.
Maybe it was. Looked more like somebody unknowingly internalizing a bit of realtorspeak to me to be that, and the followup certainly didn’t seem that way. But regardless, Tipster said it was, so I thought it wasn’t. I mean, he accused rr yesterday of shilling in the Bayveiw mansion thread and the guy was just asking some simple questions. So nice stance there, “Assistant Tipster.” And of course your spins are forced too. Your 25th and Mississippi redfin link in the 3M North Slope mansion belonged in your desktop’s trash bin.
Yes, I can understand why you would think a Potrero Hill sale at 19% below its March 2005 price should go in the desktop trashbin – once again disproves your predictions of SF immunity to crashing prices. Better for your ego to keep such facts a secret!
Signed, A.T. (Awe-inspiring Talent).
Yes, and Sutter and Lyon is in the same neighborhood as Pine and Webster. Neighborhoods can have properties that vary wildly in this town, often due to public housing proximity. Most people who talk about SFRE as much as you and your pals would know that, and refrain from posting the sort of stuff you post.
Agree that some neighborhoods are nicer and more desirable than others.
But the relative desirability of SF neighborhoods has not changed since 2005.
Not what I said, really. I said some neighborhoods contain extremes. That is the same as 2005. The difference is what part of the neighborhood has shifted more in this down market, and why. That is the same as fall 2008. It’s now winter 2011.
That’s amusing, that someone thinks that I am a realtor. It actually totally made me laugh in the midst of a very stressful day at work.
Just to clear it up, I didn’t come up with those descriptions as “internalized” real estate speak. I actually do love looking at all the glowing windows when I am walking down the elevated walkway, and when I am sitting in the living room, looking at the East Bay vista. And the heated floors are a godsend, especially this past winter… I was very sorry to step onto the cold stone tiles when I spent a week in Park City just now.
Maybe it sounds like a puff piece because I unabashedly love the place. AND because I don’t have to pretend to be all cynical and world-weary to sound superior?
El Bombero – it wasn’t an “investment” that I backed out of. It was a condo that I was going to live in, a home. But I am curious to see just how much my home would have depreciated since my purcahse. Anyone know of a resale of a 1/1.5 at Esprit Park?
Spencer, the units here lost value for the same reason apartments in your hood have. Major housing bubble followed by major recession. It wasn’t homeless people on benches and needles in the park that got us here. And I knew things were headed down in early 08, but before Lehman blew up in the fall I didn’t think it was going to be this bad. Since then I’m watching, like you, patiently. And I’m thankful for that.
^ I meant “condos in your hood”
I too live in the building and agree with everything that “Dogpatch resident” said – yes, even the “cozy glowing floor-to-ceiling windows”. Don’t really get the strangely hostile (and totally incorrect) realtor comments by A.T.
The listing for 875 Indiana #515 has been withdrawn from the MLS without a reported sale.