Purchased for $1,100,000 in September 2008, the tower one (301 Main) “E” plan two-bedroom on the 27th floor of The Infinity (the view from which is above) is back on the market and asking $1,169,000.
The tower one “E” plan on the 16th floor is also back on the market and seeking $999,000, unfortunately we don’t (yet) have its original sale price (purchased March 2009).
∙ Listing: 301 Main #27E (2/2) 1,180 sqft – $1,169,000 [Redfin]
∙ Listing: 301 Main #16E (2/2) 1,180 sqft – $999,000 [MLS]
funny how the new condos are always worth Buy Price * 1.06.
Somehow, I can’t imagine this working out well for #27E… For an extra $170K over #16E, I was expecting some nice further upgrades or something, but no.
Hmmm… So much for a 30%+ drop from peak pricing…and so much for sub-$600 psft pricing, as many predicted
I am not sure if Paul has a comment on the resales at the Infinity, but he seems to know better than most.
SFRE: Ummm…these are asking prices. It’s far too early to tell how this will play out. There is a possibility that a 30% drop may in fact come to fruition.
Personally I think 27E will go for around 950K. 16E probably will fare better but I still think it’s going to be lucky to sell for the 920K – 930K range.
These are going to be very interesting apples indeed!
I don’t really follow the condo market much, but why is it that these condos get bought and sold in such a short amount of time? 18 months and 10 months? It’s not exactly flipping season these days.
SFRE,
You’re not being serious, right?
This is asking price by bubble toppers who are doing an attempt at getting out with not too big a loss. They couldn’t flip last year, decided to wait for year but obviously have not accepted the market disappeared from under their feet.
Asking bubble prices doesn’t cost much except precious time. I doubt they’ll sell at these prices though.
@ marco,
Who knows – maybe the owner lost his/her job or has to move. Many people signed a contract long before construction finished, so they may have “owned” the place for much longer but only closed escrow 18 or 10 months ago…
I’ll add that since they’re doing this right after the recent collapse of the condo market, they’re probably tired of paying for a place they don’t need, or they don’t have the sufficient cash flow to sustain a 5-6K/month commitment with only 3K in potential income. There’s so much one can pay to keep his pride intact.
They’re trapped but they don’t accept it yet. They’d be better off starting the short sales process ASAP.
I was just being sarcastic. I am interested to see where they will go, but I can confidently predict (just one man’s opinion) that they will not be 30% below their purchase price, not even 20% below.
In any case, this will certainly be one of the better “apples” post.
SFRE – you have clearly missed the distinction between asking prices and actual selling price. Given recent sales of E units in Tower 2 the asking price of 16 E seems pretty unrealistic –
338 Spear St UNIT 18E,
Sold: $720,000
Zestimate: $950,500
Sold On: 09/11/2009
That’s $610 psf for a unit in Tower II that’s two floors higher than the 16 E in Tower 1. Moreover, Tower II units are brand new, not two years old, like Tower I. Sounds like he/she may need to go down at least another 30% to around $700,000 to catch a bid.
Here’s an even better “apples to apples” comp –
338 Spear St UNIT 16E,
Sold: $716,000
Zestimate: $950,000
Sold On: 09/04/2009
Same unit in brand new adjacent Infinity tower that sold for $606 psf. So SFRE, still think the $999,000 ASKING price for 16 E in the older tower ($846 psf) is realistic?
Using my trusty cost of ownership calculator I see that the cost of ownership for a typical buyer at asking price for these places would be ~
16E: $5009/month
27E: $5732/month
The only Infinity 2 bedroom units I can find on Craigslist have asking rents of $4475 and $4795 but are “D” and “F” units and may be different in some ways (I’m not all that familiar with the property). For e.g.:
I don’t trust these asking rents though. There seems to be too much of an incentive to hide actual rental prices so unsuspecting buyers think they are paying closer to rental parity.
For example:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/1603976567.html
SFHawkguy – I believe the “D” and “F” plans are corner ‘curved’ units, and thus are around 1317 sf. Accordingly rents for the smaller “E” units, at 1180 sf, with the concave windows and far less light, would almost certainly be less.
I saw an E unit in the mid 20’s (floor) and it was asking $3500 9 mo. ago. i could have gotten it for $3300/mo. 2 br. this thing is worth $800k. max. but i don’t expect the SF fools to see this until 2012. it takes time people.
sfman – you might be onto something with that $800k max thought. And I imagine it will get there sooner than 2012 –
338 Spear St UNIT 27E,
Sold: $765,000
Zestimate: $960,000
Sold On: 07/15/2009
27 E in the two year old Tower 1 is ASKING $1.169m 27 E in the brand new Tower 2 sold for $765k or $648 psf. For SRFE’s benefit, that’s 35% less than the current ASKING price.
Thanks for the clarification huh?
I also see the really prime 2 bedroom units at “The Infinity” are asking around 7 or 9 grand a month in rent:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/1603494649.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/1600481998.html
Seriously? above speculated that rent would be 3 grand for one of these two unit places and that seems closer reasonable to me.
Even assuming these units could rent at $3500/month for 27E and $3250/month for 16E the prices would have to fall to the following levles to reach rental parity:
16E: $589,000
27E: $647,000
That’s far off from the current ask of $1,169,000 and 999,000.
What complicates the analysis is that at a certain price the FHA financing kicks in. My assumptions above are for jumbo financing. There might be a lot of demand right at the FHA level for these particular condos–which is not good for the current owners.
I’ve read that Infinity HOA dues are relatively high — any specific numbers for these units? Owners may be trying to rent out at mortgage payment + HOA + amortized annual taxes for a “break even” investment property.
sacdomc,
HOA fee are $729 for 16E and I assumed the same for 27E.
Hawk, you don’t seem to be including HOA and property taxes in your rent vs buy comparison.
As far as true rent value, $3k is about the minimum for a decent 2BR in SOMA. So if it’s in a high rise, it should be higher, but only time will tell how much…
$729/month, as per the listings linked above.
J,
I assume $729 in HOA. I assumed 1% property tax, .25% in special taxes, and .15% for homewoners insurance. I know that is not exact for a San Francisco condo but I use this calculator (http://www.irvinehousingblog.com/calculator/) and it is hard to change those assumptions.
My other assumptions because the “typical buyer” would be using a jumbo:
6% interest rate
20% down
33% tax savings
Those are the assumptions that are easy for me to manipulate on the calculator and usually the ones I play with.
“Personally I think 27E will go for around 950K. 16E probably will fare better but I still think it’s going to be lucky to sell for the 920K – 930K range.”
Given the overwhelming evidence above (based on T2 sales) these will more than likely go somewhere in the 700’s and may just breakthrough the 800 mark. Ouch!
I sympathize with the owners but these units were purchased when it was clear that RE bubble pricing in a lot of markets were not based on fundamentals. Were these buyers misinformed, naive or simply hopeful? Wow, this simply does not make sense…What’s going on here?
Ouch – $729 per month for HOA dues? Correct me if I’m wrong, but that doesn’t even include earthquake coverage.
I don’t think they were naive. Many played the condo market for the chance at an almost-sure-win equity building ticket. Buy for 1M, sell for 1.5M, use the free proceeds for a move-up. The most resilient are still holding on. They hope they’re smarter than the weak hands that caused last year’s collapse. I think that they still ignore fundamentals and the fact that most developers themselves have recognized their own losses. The lucky ones will probably escape with a few scars.
just like it is emotionally difficult to sell a stock at a loss and lock in the losses, i imagine it’s much harder to walk away from a million dollar condo for which you put down 100K or more, which i’m curious to know what kind of downpayments were involved with all these high-end condo purchases in recent years. i’m looking at one in my own price range which is a short sale and which had zero down based on property shark numbers.
Seriously?: I think your explanation applies to buyers pre fall 2008 but not since that marker in time. I’d really be interested in feedback from buyers who have bought at Infinity (or ORH or SFBLU) since September 2008 to get perspective on their buying decision.
27E is precisely Fall 2008 vintage. Bubble topper it is.
16E price is unknown, per SS.
LOL, the people that live at The Infinity don’t think of their condos like shares of stock. They think of them as their homes and they love living there. I know at least 20 residents (owners) and every one of them absolutely loves living there.
Also, keep in mind that most of the buyers were also sellers of another home, so this was really an exchange for them. They wouldn’t have been better off holding on to their prior homes and forgoing the purchase at the Infinity.
chomes,
Good to know so many people at the Infinity. Are you their Realtor? Have you talked with them about the fall in prices in this development since they bought? Just curious.
These sellers could have walked away from their deposits, but instead funded their loans.
Not the sharpest tools in the shed.
So the pricing “strategy” here at least is consistent with their other actions.
The dreams of flippers die on the courthouse steps. That’s where these are headed. These and about half of tower I, I’m afraid.
Chomes –
Can you share a little information about the 20 people you know that own at the Infinity. Are they 20 to 30 y/o somethings and single, 30-40 y/o married with kids or older (50-60 y/o) empty nesters?
Also, can you share what types of units they bought … 1 br, 2 br, Tower or Treetops? Thanks.
I think there’s close to 800 units in the Infinity. Seems pretty reasonable that a couple homes come onto the market every week, just from normal life events.
The Infinity homeowners are now considering purchasing earthquake insurance which will increase HOA dues by $60-$160 month depending on coverage and unit.
The gym is packed every morning with young professionals. Older homeowners don’t seem to be fazed by the price decline. For many, this is their second residence. There are also many foreign owners who are seldom here.
I don’t see half of Tower I defaulting anytime soon.
The Infinity homeowners are now considering purchasing earthquake insurance which will increase HOA dues by $60-$160 month depending on coverage and unit.
Is that insurance for the structure itself? I’ve often wondered how things would work if a large multi-family building were to experience an expensive failure.
Chomos:
Would you really expect owners at Infinity to actually “admit” that they are underwater and also seriously regretting their purchase? To a degree, this is like the dot-com bubble. Everyone says they sold Cisco at $80 and MSFT at $120 and went to cash just ahead of the crash. It is always the other guy that lost money – not me.
Love the building, just not the prices.
@Seriously?: I am not their realtor and was not involved in their real estate decision in any way. The T1 owners I know are very realistic about the real estate market and are no different than people I know in any other community.
@huh?: 20% 20 something, 35% 30-40, 45% 50+. I don’t know anyone with kids living at the Infinity. Most live in 2bd, most in the Towers.
People are always posting about these Tower 1 flippers on this site. I have never met anyone that tried to flip a unit. Everyone I know lives there and it is a primary residence. I guess they may be out there, but they are the vast minority of the 650 owners.
@JustLooking: what I am saying is that the vast majority of the people that live there don’t obsess about the real estate market and they don’t compare their home to shares of Cisco and MSFT.
One in every four mortgages in the US is underwater. This is certainly true of a number of homeowners at the Infinity. I find it comical that people on this site seem to obsess about this at the Infinity, when it is true of every new residence built in the country in the last 4-5 years.
One in every four mortgages in the US is underwater. This is certainly true of a number of homeowners at the Infinity. I find it comical that people on this site seem to obsess about this at the Infinity, when it is true of every new residence built in the country in the last 4-5 years.
Back before the crash, the chat boards were full of comments describing naysayers as “bitter renters” who “missed out” on the appreciation and were hoping for a crash.
Now that crash has occurred we need a new term for these bitter naysayers. Perhaps “bitter renters”?
I’d say these “naysayers” or “bitter renters” are too overly obsessive about properties that they don’t own. Get a life.
chomes,
If The Infinity owners are anything like the 25% of American house debtors that are underwater they will indeed be obsessed with the current value of their property–after all it is probably their largest liability and can blow up the family balance sheet for decades.
Maybe The Infinity owners can afford to bleed money month after month in the lap of luxurious obliviousness but eventually most people, even luxury condo owners, are forced to realize a loss.
Plus, a place that calls itself “THE” Infinity is asking for some comeuppance.
It’s like “THE” Ohio State Buckeyes. Makes me want to throw up each time I hear it.
OTOH,
Forbes recently published an article about it being a better time to buy than rent in SF:
http://ow.ly/Zxab
Also the CA home inventories are down to 3.8 months supply from a peak of 16.6 months:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703822404575019302869755306.html
I’m not saying we are totally out of the woods but to focus on one side is sticking one’s head in the sand. The tides are turning.
and this sfgate piece says it’s better to buy than rent because it’s only 233% more expensive to buy than to rent, down from 296%.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ontheblock/detail?entry_id=55934
The “naysayers” tend to focus on how much money people have lost, rather than on how affordable homes are for first time buyers. It’s this “sucks to be you” attitude towards owners that rubs people the wrong way…
Why revel in other people’s misfortune? In many cases, we’re talking about people’s homes & a LOT of savings down the drain. It’s the financial equivalent of laughing at a pedestrian who is hit by a bus, and speaks volumes about your character.
“One in every four mortgages in the US is underwater. This is certainly true of a number of homeowners at the Infinity.”
I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to say that at least 60-70% owners at the Infinity put between 20% or less down on their homes. Perhaps it’s higher than that. Given that Tower II prices are frequently down 30% from Tower I means that far more than 1 in 4 at the Infinity are underwater.
Not surprized you haven’t seen any kids at the Infinity. With their 1300 sf units that feel like 800 sf, these poorly designed floorplans only seem to make sense for older couples who may eat out a fair amount and seldom use their kitchens. Salarywoman’s comments were on point and reflect one of several reasons why these units will continue to perform poorly as resales –
“My husband and I toured Infinity last spring. We were looking at the higher floor units with water views in tower 2. We were pretty excited at first. But as we thought about actually living there the closet situation really dampened our enthusiasm. At one point we were considering removing a bathroom to add a closet.
That was when reality set in and we decided the building was not for us.
The units work fine as pied a terres. But for most people really living there would require some expensive adjustments such as conversion of a room to a closet or adding walls of Italian (or Ikea!) wardrobe system or both.
I don’t see how TS can afford to just sit and wait for the higher end units to sell. The people who would buy these are the same people who “need” extra large amounts of closet.
I am constantly amazed at developers who do not take the time to study the way their potential buyers live. It’s not that hard to do.
Posted by: Salarywoman at November 24, 2009 11:21 AM”
Sacdomc – Where was this same compassion from the people who bought in 2006 and laughed at me and my wife for living abroad and traveling instead of buying a place?
I’m not disagreeing with what you’re saying, but it works both ways.
Don’t understand why you were expecting compassion from others, Fishchum, for traveling and living abroad. Sounds like a nice life.
huh? – why the obsession…and yes it is clearly an obsession…you repeated post on the T1 vs T2 issue and now are bringing up posts from last year. What is your story and why do you care so much about this one issue, especially since you don’t live there?
So what – you and Salarywoman don’t like the floorplans… 300 other buyers in 2009 did like the overall product enough to buy a condo, making it by far the fastest selling project in the US.
Dan – it was awesome, and we have no regrets. But I have little sympathy for the people who laughed at me and wife and called us “fools” for not buying. We’ve taken the high road with some people we know who made some very poor financial decisions back then, but it isn’t always easy.
@huh?]
You are looking at sales from September, and things have changed since (and not for the worst). The inventory is low right now, especially for 2/2s, with units receiving multiple bids over asking. I am REALLY confident that these will not sell in the $700k’s as you predict. Trust me, I wish the would drop down, but the reality is that I dont think they will go that low. Maybe 10-15% off their asking or 10-15% off purchase (the lower of the two), but certainly who ever buys these will not get them for the prices/estimates you think.
And looking at “Z-Estimates” are kind of lame, they are not the asking price and they are not all that reliable in terms of estimates (its just an algorithm).
Look at the below pricing for the Blu, they sold stuff a lot cheaper in September as well. But the reality is you can’t get in there today with the same pricing…not even close.
ADDRESS SQFT SALE DATE SALE PRICE $/sq ft
631 Folsom St Unit 3E 906 8/11/09 $575,000 $635
631 Folsom St Unit 3E 1,054 6/24/09 $595,000 $565
631 Folsom St Unit 9E 906 7/17/09 $600,000 $662
631 Folsom St Unit 5B 1,054 6/26/09 $615,000 $583
631 Folsom St #105 906 7/21/09 $615,000 $679
631 Folsom St Unit 7B 1,054 6/26/09 $625,970 $594
631 Folsom St Unit 6B 1,054 6/30/09 $643,000 $610
631 Folsom St Unit 4E 906 12/11/09 $649,000 $716
631 Folsom St Unit 9B 1,054 7/10/09 $658,000 $624
631 Folsom St Unit 8F 1,190 8/28/09 $659,000 $554
631 Folsom St Unit 5F 1,190 11/10/09 $677,500 $569
631 Folsom St Unit 6F 1,190 8/21/09 $680,000 $571
631 Folsom St Unit 9C 1,054 11/2/09 $690,000 $655
631 Folsom St Unit 7F 1,190 9/18/09 $709,000 $596
631 Folsom St Unit 3A 1,136 7/23/09 $712,000 $627
631 Folsom St Unit 9F 1,190 12/31/09 $750,000 $630
631 Folsom St Unit 4F 1,190 12/31/09 $755,000 $634
631 Folsom St Unit 6D 1,230 5/7/09 $758,382 $617
631 Folsom St Unit 10C 1,054 12/11/09 $760,000 $721
631 Folsom St Unit 10F 1,190 9/16/09 $760,000 $639
631 Folsom St Unit 7D 1,230 8/12/09 $763,500 $621
631 Folsom St Unit 6A 1,136 8/7/09 $770,000 $678
631 Folsom St Unit 8D 1,230 8/14/09 $775,000 $630
631 Folsom St Unit 7A 1,136 8/28/09 $775,000 $682
631 Folsom St Unit 9D 1,230 9/29/09 $790,000 $642
631 Folsom St Unit 4D 1,230 12/11/09 $795,000 $646
631 Folsom St Unit 10D 1,230 9/25/09 $805,000 $654
631 Folsom St Unit 8A 1,136 10/20/09 $820,000 $722
631 Folsom St Unit 9A 1,136 12/7/09 $825,000 $726
631 Folsom St Unit 11A 1,136 12/29/09 $840,000 $739
631 Folsom St Unit 14F 1,190 9/17/09 $900,000 $756
631 Folsom St Unit 17A 1,136 12/29/09 $980,000 $863
631 Folsom St Unit E 1,960 8/19/09 $1,750,000 $893
@huh?
PS: If either of those units sell in $700k’s I will buy you a beer!
Fischum, sorry to hear people weren’t gracious when they thought you were missing out on a real estate boom. You’re right that compassion can go both ways, and it’s feel bad for people who take pleasure in seeing people lose money (or miss opportunities to make money, in your case) – I imagine such people are fairly insecure since they need to make themselves feel better by focusing on others who are “worse off.”
“I don’t see how TS can afford to just sit and wait for the higher end units to sell.” -huh?
Word on the street is that there are only 8 units left at Infinity. Over 600+ Sold or in Contract. Seems pretty good to me.
Compare it to the following:
One Rincon: (80% sold, 20+ currently for resale, ZERO chance for the 2nd Tower)
Blu: 50% Sold and almost on it’s last lifeline before they cut pricing again. I heard the sales office has been real slow and buyers are waiting for Hawthorne
Soma Grand: Still at 95% sold
Arterra: 6 Left
Radiance: 1 or 2 left?
Not much left for good quality new construction.
chromes, don’t take huh? to serious. He’s just a buyer over at One Rincon trying to talk down a better building.
SFRE – you’re safe on that one.
Another thing to consider – properties closing in 9/2009 were under contract in July or August. At that time, you could walk in to the sales office and have your choice of 50 similar units. Now those units are 100% sold out so the supply/demand equation has fundamentally changed. In fact, the supply of all new condos is drying up and there will be no new buildings for at least 5 years.
“@huh?
PS: If either of those units sell in $700k’s I will buy you a beer!”
Make it a bottle of Petrus ’82 🙂
The naysayers and bitter renters are like those laughing at an injured pedestrian? What a bunch of self-serving baloney. You’re just looking for someone to blame for your crummy financial decision and so you blame the group that was right–those that were skeptical of purchasing luxury condos in San Francisco at the height of the bubble. You’re projecting when you call others bitter. I think those underwater in luxury San Francisco condos have much more of a reason to be bitter than the renters that wisely socked their money away and were able to do such things as travel Europe.
Look, most of us bears are just interested in our local real estate market and like commenting on it. Personally, I like the exchange of ideas more than I like seeing people like you suffer. And while I think it’s only fair that luxury condo owners suffer the same way others are suffering I really don’t take pleasure in it. If I really want to see people suffering I look farther down the food chain than luxury San Francisco condo owners.
But you also miss a major point.
America is worse off with inflated housing prices. I know the government is on your side and even Obama thinks making house prices go up again is the solution to our problems.
Obama is wrong. You are wrong. We need housing prices to continue to fall in many areas to help the largest number of people. Especially in San Francisco. We are still way out of whack with incomes. It hurts more people to try to keep prices elevated. But the government doesn’t care about helping the majority of people–it does what’s best for it’s banking owners–which means more welfare for home “owners” and more theft from renters.
In fact, talk about wishing ill on your fellows! You want your bailout and want us to pay higher housing prices because of it? No way. When I say I want housing prices to come down it’s not to hurt you. It’s because we are still in dangerous bubbles in many areas and to have a sustainable economy we can’t have such outrageous inefficiencies in our housing market.
SFHawkguy, thanks for the straw man rebuttal — I don’t recall saying anything about the bailout, Obama, bankers, inflated home prices, whether I am an owner or renter, or the “plight” of renters in SF.
I am glad, though, that you focus on how things could be better for most people, rather than just trying to make people feel bad about buying a home at the wrong time. I agree that our country could do a better job of helping people afford a place to live.
I disagree, however, with the premise that everyone should own a home – I think many people are better off renting, for one reason or another. I think that a good way to improve the rental situation in SF is to get rid of rent control, which would likely increase the number of rental units on the market and encourage landlords to upgrade and make the rentals better places to live.
OMG this is so funny about “no new construction”. For about $50K, I can update any of those tiny shoeboxes with new everything. That’s far less than they’ve declined in ONE YEAR!
I’ll take $200K-$300K off and update them myself, thanks! And I’ll probably skip the white counter hospital look that you’re stuck overpaying for. LOL!!
Sacdomc,
I don’t think everyone should own a home either. It’s an anchor for a lot of people rather than the all-American dream it’s been sold as. Instead, a home should be viewed as shelter and one should rent or buy based on a sound financial assessment.
And that’s why I’m worried the government and Obama are now using the FHA to loosen underwriting (or more accurately keep underwriting loose). How many many 2/2 luxury condos are now being funded because of the FHA? How much have the fed’s effort to keep mortgage interest rates low helped? The tax on short sales and forgiven debt? The foreclosure moratoria? The federal modification programs? For criminny sakes, we’re giving people a tax break to buy a friggin home!
And while rent control does cause inefficiencies in housing prices it pales in comparison to the inefficiencies created by the welfare given to homeowners.
tipster – you missed the point. First, the US population is growing very rapidly (among the fastest on the planet) through increased birthrates and immigration. The demand for housing will increase and the supply (in areas like SF) will be constant. Second, many buyers prefer new. In fact, there are some that absolutely will not buy a place that is not brand spanking new. I have done the math for people many times and they often ignore it and buy the new place because they want to and they can.
“because they want to and they can.”
I strongly support the purchasing of houses by people who want to and can. As long as “can” is defined as no less than 20% of their own money down.
“The standard SocketSite Listed Inventory footnote: Keep in mind that our listed inventory count does not include listings in any stage of contract (even those which are simply contingent) nor does it include listings for multi-family properties (unless the units are individually listed).”
The above is from the monthly inventory graph SS publishes for all the trolls to find the hidden message in. I think if the inventory of new condos (ORH, Infinity, Palms, SOMA Grand, all of Mission Bay) had been included in this graph we would have a better understanding of the true inventory situation potential buyers are facing. It’s also like if GM had closed the doors and stopped making new cars. Those in the market for a GMC pick up truck would be forced to negotiate with any number of individual used truck sellers instead of having two dealers bid against each other for your business. Once the condo inventory gets absorbed sellers will no longer have to compete with the developer, or concern themselves with what fire sale unit clearances does to their comps.
I am not a realtor, nor do I play one on SS. However, all the realtors that I talk to indicate there is a lack of inventory in resonably priced (and not distressed) 2/2 condos in SOMA / South Beach
The Infinity is falling apart fast. New buyers should be aware – get your punchlist items fixed before you close. Tishman is a complete no-show for anything after the close. They no longer have workers on-site and don’t want to pay anything to hire new ones. It’s becoming a huge problem with the final sale units. Also, the building is virtually falling to pieces. The parking garage has water coming through the walls, windows are leaking with every storm, and where is Tishman to help with all this… GONE!! Earthquake insurance is the last thing this place needs. They should get Tishman insurance.
To top it off, the HOA is run by a completely incompetent person. I dare any of you to call the HOA office right now and ask for Susan. Nobody will get her on the phone… she treats everyone in that office like her personal admin and has them make lame excuses for her lack of desire to deal with a single resident issue.
^^^ Wow, Tishman had a complete panic dumping of Tower II and now they refuse to answer calls and the place is falling apart? Hard to imagine.
So, with the rain leaking through the windows and garage walls does that mean Infinity homeowners are both literally and physically underwater?
Don’t worry though, because of the fire sale it is “by far the fastest selling project in the US” so that should make up for everything 🙂
just had lunch with a Tower I resident this week and he confirms that each storm brings lots of water leakage problems. he didn’t mention garage issues. but he’s not thrilled with the development at all.
ichiri-
Professional Home Warranty Services (a 3rd party) handles the punchlist, not Tishman. They are probably running behind given the volume of units that closed recently, but they do address each item.
As discussed on several occasions, the garage is built under sea level and there is water coming through the wall in several places. Tishman is fixing the issue and is more than half way done and have fixed the most difficult B5 level. The repairs have been very successful and Tishman actually bought an 8 year contract to continue with any repairs in the future if needed.
There have been some isolated water issues, but they have been very proactive. They repeatedly hire third party consultants to review the work and they proactively roll out any fixes to areas that aren’t impacted as a preventative measure.
The HOA is well run and there was no indication or discussion of any issues you mentioned at the board meeting last night.
Willy – Are you running for president of the HOA? Because that sounds like a great pitch to the current HOA president, Tishman Speyer!
You need to contact Professional Home Warranty service yourself and find out their process. For anything non-appliance related, all PHW does is contact Tishman to arrange fixes! And that’s when nothing gets done. PHW will tell you themselves that they are getting frustrated with Tishman’s complete lack of response. PHW is only a middle-man between the owner and Tishman. Nothing else. PHW doesn’t employ a single repair person. Get your facts straight.
And water in the garage 1/2 way done. Wow! Great news. The building has been open for 1.5 years and we are 1/2 way done with water repairs in the garage. Maybe in another 1.5 years we’ll be done with the other 1/2… only to have the 5th floor start leaking again.
And no indication of the HOA being poorly run… what board meeting do you attend? This is constantly brought up. BTW – Why don’t you take my HOA challenge and try calling Susan (HOA manager) anytime during regular work hours. I’d be very curious how many times you actually reach her.
“As discussed on several occasions, the garage is built under sea level and there is water coming through the wall in several places … There have been some isolated water issues, but they have been very proactive …”
Translation – The Titanic is not really sinking. We are actively re-arranging the deck chairs, so we have everything completely under control. For your entertainment we have the string quartet playing. Nothing to worry about … just a few minor holes that we will have patched up in no time. Carry on.
ichiri-
I have contacted Professional Home Warranty and they fixed all of my issues. It did take longer than 30 days, but they were fixed – and fyi, Tishman does not do the fixes.
The garage work was delayed to start during the rainy season so they could have the wettest environment to find and fix the areas, since the water is actually from runoff (not the bay). They are on schedule to finish in April.
The HOA is the best run of any place I have lived by far – especially considering the size/scale.
The meeting last night was extremely positive and civil…there was not one single negative comment about any of the items you mentioned.
Willy – What do you mean Tishman doesn’t do the warranty fixes? Who do you think PHW is coordinating with to pay workers to get the work done… the easter bunny’s cousin… the warranty bunny?
Is this guy for real?
You still haven’t commented on my HOA challenge which leads me to believe we have our token HOA poster here.
ichiri-
You got me. I am actually the president of Tishman Speyer.
To answer your questions:
Tishman is the developer. They wear suits and ties. They hired a general contractor (Webcor) to build the development who in turn hired many, many subcontractors. The warranty work gets done by the sub or by a specialty firm from San Leandro – I forget their name.
I have contacted Susan several times and she has followed-up without a problem.
Maybe you need to try a different approach. If you need Susan, perhaps you should schedule a meeting or drop by – although, I don’t think any of the items you mentioned (warranty work, water, etc) have anything to do with the HOA.
Willy – Your Tishman Speyer cheerleading outfit is being sent to you and will be available at the front desk.
I am aware who Tishman is and who Webcor is. And I know how pays to get the warranty fixes done – Tishman. So don’t tell me Tishman doesn’t have anything to do with the warranty fixes. They pay the bills… or better yet, stopped doing so.
I don’t know when you moved in but for new residents, warranty fixes are a disaster. Tishman is a no show. They are gone. Firesale and not looking back. So I’m warning new buyers – get Tishman to do all of the punchlist before close. If you wait until after close… forget it. Nothing is getting done once the money trades hands.
I look forward to seeing you in your cheerleading outfit. Leg shaving optional.
I agree ichiri seems confused about the roles of the various players.
Tishman = developer. They probably have a move-in coordinator that takes care of getting your initial punch list items resolved prior to moving it.
Webcor = builder. They own all the leaks and all the subs with their associated warranties. PHW is likely a 3rd party scheduling subs to make warranty repairs on Webcor’s behalf.
Titan (I think) = Building Manager. They take care of non-warranty issues you might have and schedule and advise of common area work which may effect residents.
HOA = HOA. A Board of involved residents in a thankless role acting as intermediary between many of the above players.
Maybe ichiri’s anger stems from the frustration of constantly contacting the wrong entity about issues over which they have no control?
OEM – Let me clarify further for you. You seem to be confused who foots the bills here.
You Pay Tishman
Tishman pays Webcor
HOA pays Titan
You don’t deal with Webcor. You deal with Tishamn. I know perfectly well who to contact and I know who is flaking on their obligations. Most notable is Tishman flaking on their punchlist fix commits, for which PHW is supposed to be coordinating. However, at the admission of PHW, Tishman is unresponsive. Contact PHW yourself for further explanation.
I agree OneEyedMan. I also think the sheer volume of closings is causing repair delays and that is adding to the frustration. I don’t think that anyone (PHWC, Webcor, subcontractors, Titan) was prepared for 300 units closing in 200 business days.
ichiri – It is ludicrous to come on this board and accuse anyone of walking away from the development. That is simply not happening and I have supplied several facts (not cheerleading). Tishman continues to make contributions to the development. The specific items mentioned just last night were the 8 yr contract, equipment to clean the garage that will be given to the HOA, a new bike storage room, etc.
Willy – I can’t understand your defensiveness. I came here to give a warning to new buyers. Get your punchlist items fixed before closing. Is this really bad advice?
You haven’t supplied any facts. When did you close? I’m almost certain it wasn’t in the last 6 months because if it was, you’d be dealing with the same issue. Face it, you closed a while ago, you’re issues were dealt before the firesale, and you think everyone must be in the same situation. Sorry buddy, it’s not true. Tishman isn’t the same now that their Webcor crew is gone. Closure on punchlist repairs is a joke.
And for the HOA, go look at the comments on the yahoo group. Everyone is complaining about the HOA.
Get out of your defensive fairyland.
I agree that people should get their warranty items fixed before closing. That always makes sense, especially in this case where it must be a logistical nightmare to manage the sheer volume of requests due to the number of recent closings.
However, that is not all you said.
Here are your words:
“The Infinity is falling apart fast”
“the building is virtually falling to pieces
parking garage has water coming through the walls, windows are leaking with every storm, and where is Tishman to help with all this… GONE!!”
“the HOA is run by a completely incompetent person”
“Tishman is a no show. They are gone. Firesale and not looking back”
You are spreading absolutely false information.
You also accused me of being a cheerleader, on the HOA and in defensive fairyland.
Please take this in the nicest way possible, but your communication methods and attitude may be affecting your success in getting things accomplished with your unit.
The HOA office is a joke, agree about that. Hopefully that will change.
But having lived in a number of new units the issues the building is dealing with are pretty common. Ask the Met down the street about water issues or tiling issues. And TS hasn’t disappeared, they’ll be around for the required 10 years.
All the hyperbole is ridiculous.
as an owner who closed in august, i have to agree on the frustrations with getting punch list items resolved. i STILL have open items. angela lopez at PHW is completely, utterly incompetent. she mixes up schedules, isn’t responsive, gets units confused, says repairs are done when they haven’t been etc. to top it off, she has no sense of providing good customer service. as one example, when i wasted time waiting at home for an appointment that never happened, she blamed the mix-up on me, even though i had her email proving her idiocy. it’s a total nightmare. she must be sleeping with her boss, because that’s the only way she can still be employed in this economy. her boss, btw, constantly makes excuses for her poor performance, so maybe my conjecture isn’t far from the truth.
my frustrations aside, i DO like living at the infinity. i’ve never dealt with susan, but lily and katie have always been responsive and helpful.
does anyone know what realistic rents for the infinity are at now? the prices on craigslist look very inflated.
My unit is gorgeous, my curve windows and slide door don’t leak, multiple zone climate control works wonderfully, quarterly free front door maintenance keeps mine brand new and my parking spot and the surrounding grounds are bone dry. All little problems were promptly taken care of. While HOA rules are a bit strict, I managed to get around them. This is our city home and it is working out fabulously.
I also live at the infinity. I had the same problem with the PHW contractor. They said they would come 3 different times to fix an error in their installation. Had things arranged for them, took time off/cut out of work early each appt time, and they did not show until the 4th time, and this required some very angry words from me. This was all back in August, i think it was before or early on in the big surge in sales.
I would reiterate the problems mentioned above, namely, the microscopic closet space, insufficient storage, and water leakage. there is a spot of water damage in the middle of my living room, i have no idea how water leaked to the floor of the middle of the living room of the guy above me, as i live in the teens. The building has nice ammenities, but if i didn’t have a nice curved corner view, i just don’t think this place would be worth the price. Even with the view, it is sometimes hard to justify to myself or my friends the cost…
Willy – See above. Enough said.
^^^^^^
Well that settles it. I don’t know about anyone else, but for me, the best judge of a 400 million dollar, multi-year housing project of over 1000 residents is an anonymous post on an obscure blog.
@ichiri
Enough said.
Promise?
“I don’t know about anyone else, but for me, the best judge of a 400 million dollar, multi-year housing project of over 1000 residents is an anonymous post on an obscure blog.”
Would the obscure blog you are referencing be the same SocketSite blog to which you are posting? I would imagine the editor might have a few things to say about the obscurity (or not) of SS.
In addition, it’s not just Ichiri that seems to have issues with the Infinity, as Mike 9898, cillierabbit and infinityrenter have shown. Where there is smoke …
[Editor’s Note: Sticks and stones. We recorded well over 10,000 unique visits (not “hits”) yesterday alone. And for a buy side site focused on a city in which roughly half that number of sales were reported last year, we’re fine with that level of “obscurity.”]
SFHawkguy, you pretty much nailed it at Feb 17 – 3:16pm.
How many floors at Infinity are underground? (Assume these are parking.) How many of those are under sea level? Thanks in advance.
I also have a unit at the Infinity and have to agree with ichiri that the HOA are bunch of idiots. My curtain wall do leak a lot (every storm for 2 years now), operable window does not close properly and they just replaced AC unit due to bad intall (some hooked hot water line to the condensing unit). It took so long to convince HOA idiots the building leak that I finally had enough and contacted a lawyer.
By the way, Carl Shannon (managing partner of Tishman, developer) is the president of HOA. It makes you wonder conflict of interest.
Been a owner 11 months. Absolutely love the place. Have not yet encountered any issues. Everything works. Have a low level parking (B4-B5)- where is all the water ? HOA employee are so so but what do you expect, they came with the developer ! We can replace them if deemed necessary. So far not a very proactive group of home owners – at the election for HOA board members, less than 15% of the 490 homeowners showed up…
I’m an owner @ Infinity. I love living here but I’m having some issues with sounds coming from the pipes going into the HVAC unit. Just wondering if anyone else is having the same problem. According to engineering everything is running smoothly, however this sound was not present when we first moved in. It just recently started when Prospect started drilling. Just wondering if anyone else is having this issue as well.
I don’t expect the infinity to be for everyone. A few unhappy owners (eg, Ichiri) out of over 600 is to be expected. I don’t know of any condo building where all the owners were happy. I personally haven’t met an unhappy owner yet. Everyone I have met are extremely satisfied with their purchase. Of course there are some drawbacks (closet space, hoa management, strict rules). You can say that about any condo building. But it is a huge improvement compared to many of the other condo associations that i’ve belonged to. Overall, i love living here and it’s a wonderful project. In terms of the water issue in the garage, there has been a dramatic improvement on B5 since a few months ago. My unit was not affected in the storm so i haven’t had the leakage problem.
I wonder why the Infinity gets so much attention on this board when many of the complaints here are far worse in other condo projects. These issues are not unique to the Infinity.
^Infinity Resident. As you probably know, the Infinity and One Rincon have long been the obsessions of Socketsite. It almost makes me nostalgic to think of the sniping back and forth about which was going to be more fabulous during the boom years. If Socketsite lasts until 2030, we’ll probably still be chatting about the Infinity and One Rincon.
The real story at Infinity – Folks who made money out of Infinity are posting positive comments; and those who recently bought any units during the fire sale period are very negative about Infinity.
How many floors at Infinity are underground? (Assume these are parking.) How many of those are under sea level?
The more important question is:
How many of units at Infinity are underwater?
Joh,
The number of underwater units at the infinity is not an isolated case. It’s like that everywhere. So why are we picking on the infinity having underwater units when it’s a problem throughout the nation?
tpsf,
To answer your question, there are 5 underground levels (all parking).
Not really understanding your reasoning here. I’m a recent buyer and am very happy – not just for the amazing unit & building as a whole, but also the great “fire sale” price I got on it.
What’s to be negative about?
i second confused’s thoughts. while i’m extremely annoyed by PHW, i love where i live. i liked the location during my condo hunt, and i like it even more now that i live here. it’s a block to the N/T, 10-minute walk to ferry bldg and most offices in fidi. the only downside is there aren’t a lot of affordable dinner options nearby. besides the nagging punch list items, the construction is solid — no other issues. and an underrated part of the experience is how helpful the concierges are, especially yvette. no place is going to be perfect for everyone, and the infinity’s not perfect for me, but it’s pretty damn close.
Let’s summarize:
NO water issues, deeded parking!
Have had great success with HOA and Punchlist
No noise, great build quality..
View of paradise..
Would have paid more (MUCH MORE).
Love this building and the staff
Stuff it Rincons and non-owners.
Taint selling anywhere near list…
guys, the comparisons with 27E from the second tower are not comparable at all!!! Below the 30th floor, the E units are 1 br in the second tower. You’d want to compare to the F unit, which has the similar floorplan. That one sold for 1.05M recently.
I believe the ‘E’ floorplans from Tower 1 have concave (curved inward) windows and are 1180 sq. ft. The ‘F’ floorplans have curved (outwards) windows and 1317 sq. ft. and far greater amounts of light. The two are not a good comparison as the floorplans seem pretty dissimilar to me.