At the risk of rewarding a reader’s bad behavior (hijacking not only one, but two completely unrelated posts), and possibly even feeding a troll (we’re willing to give him/her the benefit of the doubt), we’re establishing a “read and respond at your own risk” repository for “In-Contract-At-Infinity.”
Our thanks to everyone who has already responded sincerely, and now on to ICAI’s inquiry (and back to your regularly scheduled programming elsewhere)…
UPDATE: Comments on this post make reference to unit 9B at The Infinity and a wildly erroneous contract price. We just confirmed the unit is in contract for over $1,000,000.
I need profession comments on my contract price. $850K for 10A 2br/2ba with hardwood at The-Infinity. The unit is facing Howard. Very lost. Not sure I should take it. Please help. 🙂
How many square feet is it?
in-contract, I’d say 730 per sq ft is a decent price at the Infinity for the 10th floor. When did you negotiate this price?
in-conract-at-Infinity, take it only if you can afford the payments, have good reserves and can live there happily for al least 10 years or more.
I need profession comments on my contract price. $850K for 10A 2br/2ba with hardwood at The-Infinity. The unit is facing Howard. Very lost. Not sure I should take it. Please help. 🙂
Are you going to live there for at least 5 years? Do you like it? Can you afford it?
Those are the questions you should be asking. I live at the Infinity and love it. 850K sounds like a pretty good price, but no-one knows what it will be worth at some point in the future. If you’re buying it as an investment, it might not pan out. As a place to live, I think it’s great.
“Are you going to live there for at least 5 years? Do you like it? Can you afford it?”
Anon has exactly the right questions to ask oneself. If you are looking at this as a pure investment, it may not make sense, certainly not short term. In terms of the price, 301 Main Street, #8A [two floors below your unit] sold on 4/6/08 for $990,000, so your price of $850,000 for a higher floor looks relatively favorable.
Thank you so much for advices. Very much appreciated.
Let me answer one-by-one.
NoeValleyJim: The square footage is 1163. The smallest 2/2 in Infinity Tower I.
Phatty: I negotiate the price last week. Last Thursday. Finalised on Friday. Signed contract on Sat. Couldn’t sleep on Sunday. 🙂
Chuckie: I can not afford it but financial OK if renting out one-bedroom at $1700 with parking.
Anon: I plan to live there for at least 5 years. I love it. Can barely afford and have to rent out 1 bedroom for 1 or 2 years at least. About house price adjusting down, no one knows. I am in need to move anyway. HOWEVER, 9B (also 2/2 with 1317 sq ft & patio but partially facing Mid-rise) sold at 750K. That is one of the main reasons I think my price is no fair for what I will need to take up finanically, psychologically and emotionally. 🙂
Someone punches me to wake me, please? 🙂
I hate to say it but it sounds like you’re in over your head. If you have to get a roommate, you’re in another ballgame. Why put yourself through all that stress so you can live in some fancy high-rise? There are a lot better deals out there where you won’t be paying 600 a month on association fees.
“HOWEVER, 9B (also 2/2 with 1317 sq ft & patio but partially facing Mid-rise) sold at 750K.”
Wow – that’s an amazing price for that unit. When I visited the sales office in January, they weren’t quoting any of the ‘B’ units at less than $1.2m, hence my chagrin and frustration with that sales group. The view in 9B of the water [I think] may be somewhat obscured by Hills Plaza, but that $750K, it’s a unit I would have considered … if it did indeed go at that price. Not good news for the person in #20B who paid $1.77m in early March, although his view would be superior.
in-contract, I had an offer down on a unit almost a year ago that I removed due to market fears. I’ve been considering going back and seeing if I can get the same unit (which I know is still available) at a close-out price before sales of the 2nd tower begin.
I’d be interested in knowing more details of how you negotiated with them? Mind emailing me at phattyphat17@live.com ?
And how do you know 9B went for 750k? I didn’t think they were discounting that much yet…
I would say that think 10 years, not 5. 5 years from now may exactly be the wrong time… if you can’t commit for 10 years or more, run… don’t walk. Right now we know for a fact that many people who bought 3 years ago are in a world of hurt.
Let me put it another way: Wouldn’t you prefer to be that renter paying $1700 a month with parking?
This may be OT… or maybe not: If it drives, floats or fornicates, rent!
If you can barely afford it without renting out the unit, FORGET IT–RUN AWAY!!
Beyond the mortgage, there’s the HOA fees (about $700) and taxes (at least another $750/month). I’d walk away and hope you can get some money back. In any case, I’m not sure you’d even be able to qualify for a mortgage.
Surprised 9B went for 750K (if true). Last I heard they were trying to get about that for 1 beds.
Thank you for the help. The responses are amazing. Thks.
94114: U R rite! I’d retrieve! Maybe going for a 1br! That’s exactly what I needed, someone to slap me hard to wake me up. 🙂 Thks.
Recent ORH buyer: 9B has ZERO view as I said the Mid-Rise blocks everything. Again, 1317 sqft & patio BUT zero view facing the wall of Mid-Rise. BUT, still good value fo 1317 sqft. I think! About Sales Group, they are sucks, they never stand on your side at all.
phatty: I will email you with my cell number, why I know how much they are selling because my friend got the unit 🙂
Chuckie: well, i’ve been dreaming to move in for too long, that’s why I am lost. I always have housemate and no problem with, therfore, to me, I am OK to rent out. However, you are so rite, I would love to be the renter living in The-Infinity 🙂
Anon: I qualified by BOA with 25% down at least. My income is reasonable but no high. I think you are rite, I should go for 1br.
Well, I have decided to back out and ask for a 1br. Since I never follow 1br at The-Infinity, anyone can provide a starting point under the current situation? I mean after the Fannie May thing, Big Thks.
I have decided to back out my current 2br contract and asking for a 1br. Since I never follow 1br at The-Infinity, anyone advisor here can provide a professional tip on the starting point under the current situation? I mean after the Fannie May thing! A Very Big Thkzzzzzzzzzzzzz
I suggest leasing a 1-bedroom on a high floor and waiting the market out. SOMA will continue to soften and you don’t want to be the knife catcher; lot’s of investment units in the Infinity with more on the way.
unearthly: One of the main reason for me to buy is for the Tax-Coverage. My tax is too high. I am single, working as an engineer in South Bay, work long hours, want to have a life in weekend. Hope not to much to ask. 😉
My point is that if I rent, I get zero tax benefit at all. Too bad.
Now, Government takes over Fannie May/Mac, more people will be able to get reasonably affortable loan. Foreclosure will still go on a while but loan availability should ease the foreclosure. I think the situation will turn around early next year.
I know I am silly to jump on conclusion for something on one can answer. However, that is what I hope and think. 🙂
In-Contract,
You are in a RE bear forum, what do you expect? People will tell you to get out of the contract, period, even if it means that you lose the deposit.
To me, 2br makes more sense than 1br. If you want a 1br, get out of the contract and rent instead. 1br is simply not big enough for a family (couple with kids), so by definition, you won’t stay there for long (unless you want to be single and party for many years to come), so it is very unlikely that the buy-vs-rent analysis will work for buying.
@ in-contract-at-infinity
You’re kind of all over the place. Earlier you said you were putting >= 25% down on a 2/2 for $850k which would give you a $635k loan. You also stated that your income was not high enough to cover the monthly. Now you are saying you pay too much in taxes?
Back of the envelope says your monthly for the 2/2 would be about $5200 (Mortgage + HOA + taxes). If you rented for anything less that $3700/month you would break-even tax wise (assuming 33% tax rate).
Also your $200k down payment could be invested in something fixed in the short-term. I’m renting a high floor unit at the Infinity for around $4k, purchase price was in excess of $1.2M. YMMV.
John: Trust me on this, I love to take up the 2br. BUT, based on my income, 2br is very tight for me, I MUST rent out 1 room. I already have a 1br rental property, can not take back yet, another 8 months. However, that property is already self-sustained. That’s why I want to get a 2 br for now, when time is better, I will sell the rental and no more rental. Now, if I take up the 2br, I am using HELOC paying about 700 bucks as interest for 150K LOC. Borrowing 50K from 401K with interest of 600 bucks per month for 10 years. Not sure it worths trying. If buying 1br, I do not need a housemate, just wait until market is getting better, sell both and get a 2br at that time.
What do you think?
“You are in a RE bear forum, what do you expect?”
I would imagine everyone coming to this site is truly interested in real estate ownership. I am a BEAR, but also own my own home in 94123 as well as two rental units. As a “BEAR”, I feel now is NOT the time to purchase any more property, though I could.
Can one be a BEAR, but be a property owner as well?
Is it really so horrible if some feel now is a better time to rent, than to own?
unearthy: OMG, you are good in numbers. hehe
Here is my calculation (per month)
Mortgage on 635K :$4,720
HOA :$ 650
150K LOC (from a 1br rental property):$ 700
==============================================
($6,070)
Food+car+gas+others ($1,300)
==============================================
($7,370)
Income (after 401k,tax withdraw) $5,600
Rent out 1br + parking $1,900
==============================================
Saving $ 130
For Property tax, I put 0 exemption, should be covered by tax refund at the end of year.
Will this work?
In-Contract… I still stand by my earlier advice… but if you must buy, I think buy 2 br and take a tenant until you can sell your other rental. Will be less costly in the long run…
In-Contract,
I would prefer 2bd over 1bd, both from rental and future appreciation purposes.
However, I would NOT borrow from 401K. Then you are under huge pressure to keep the job such that you can repay it back.
I would rent at this point, until you have either accumlate enought money for a 2bd, or until equity line is back again (for you to take equity out of your existing rental to pay towards your 2nd property)
OMG, you guys are good in numbers. hehe
Thank you: 11223, ex-SF-er, Chunkie and others
Here is my calculation (per month)
Mortgage on 635K :($4,720)
HOA :($650)
150K LOC (from a 1br rental property):($700)
==============================================
($6,070)
Food+car+gas+others ($1,300)
==============================================
($7,370)
Income (after 401k,tax withdraw): $5,600
Rent out 1br + parking: $1,900
==============================================
Remaining: $130 per month
For Property tax, I put 0 exemption, should be covered by tax refund at the end of year.
I have 200K of 401K as reserves.
Will this work?
You forget the $700-$800/month for property taxes.
In my experience, all these “tax savings” from home ownership are more or less eaten up by property taxes, so it’s a wash.
sorry re-read your comment. So basically, you’re paying $4100/month to share a 2 bedroom with no view with a stranger.
Not something I would do, esp. with the uncertain chance for appreciation. (remember, it has to go up at least 6% to get your money back when you sell–factoring in the commission and transfer taxes).
OH, you won’t be able to find financing with these numbers in today’s market. Your D/I ratio is way too high.
$635K, 6.5% for 30 year, the PMT is only $4K. How did you get $4720??
11223:
I don’t know my loan agent is able to get that for me. I guess state_of_income.
My loan agent said $4K is for 5 yr ARM Interest Only. $4,720 is for 30 yr fixed with P & I.
I gave all information to him, he gave me the number. He did my friend’s loan, it was OK. I think trustable.
No, 30 yr fixed, fully amortized is only $4K a month.
@ 11223
There’s a $150k NELOC in there; does anyone still do 80/10/5’s anymore?
Anon:
I did not forget the 1.141% property tax, roughly $808 per month.
I put 0 tax exemption in W4 to withdraw enough money for property tax at the end of the end. I have to do this, otherwise, I spend my pay check all.
Nope, I am not just paying $4100/month. I am paying $4720(mortgage) + $650(HOA) + $670(LOC) + $808(property tax) = about $6900 – $1900 (income from rent) => $5000 per month for a 2br/2ba Condo in The-Infinity on 10th Floor facing Howard, i.e. City View, maybe for another 2-3 years as the block in front of The-Infinity eventually will be high rise blocking the sa-as-called “City View”.
Where is the Crystal Ball? 🙂
I’m assuming “I guess state_of_income” is what an extremely unsophisticated buyer (though one who already owns one property, and is about to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to purchase another) interprets when he hears “stated income” (i.e. I am stating it, not proving it, because I can’t prove it) meaning no doc loan, meaning liar loan.
And therein lies the rub. Without that product, NO WAY does this guy qualify, the product is going away, and he thinks he’s going to be the only one in that boat: could NOT qualify without stated income but qualifies with it.
When the price drops like a rock when stated income loans disappear later, because MANY FEWER PEOPLE CAN QUALIFY FOR A LOAN THAT SIZE, no doubt this guy will be whining to everyone he can how much of a victim he was.
There is NO NEED for him to buy right now and yet he will be one of the last guys buying in a “state of income” marketplace before that demand finally gives out and prices drop as a result.
I hope this guy is just pulling our chain. State of Income indeed.
Not sure I get the whole picture of yours. Can you be more specific? Should I go ahead or not from your prospective? I am confused.
People, please don’t feed the troll. Anyone signing up to spend 70% of their monthly income on a condo payment is clearly an imbecile or lying.
Ding-ding-ding!!! Congratulations, Jimmy, here’s what you’ve won: A year’s supply of Turtle Wax, and SocketSite: The Home Edition.
Thanks for playing!
The funny thing is, “In-Contract-At-Infinity” actually COULD be a real person (undoubtedly this is a prank – well done!). I’ve met so many people in the Bay Area that are THAT dumb and sound just like this poster.
My favorite was referring to regular poster “chuckie” as “Chunkie”! Hilarious spoof.
In-contract-at-infinity:
FIRST
I agree with 11223.
$635k mortgage
6.5%
30 year fixed
leads to a PRINCIPAL plus INTEREST payment of $4013.63/month.
Possibilities for the $4720/month figure
1) it might be “PITI” (principal plus interest plus taxes plus insurance). this is highly likely especially if the HOA fee covers insurance.
2)if the loan were 8.15% and not 6.5%. (an 8.15% loan would lead to $4720/mo)
3)there are hidden fees or something in your loan (like fees to the broker?)
SECOND
I must be missing something.
the way I read your balance statement (I didn’t dig into your previous posts), your mortgage payment is more than your take home pay. I’m sorry, that will not work regardless of tax breaks, etc.
you would be to “razor thin” on your finances. So you would have no wiggle room if your roommate or tenant moves out as example. or if your condo should have a special assessment. or if you should have an illness. etc.
imagine if your tenant moves out and it takes 3 months to get a new one! that would be $5700 right there of income you’ve lost. not an unreasonable possibility
third
you should not borrow from your 401k. Under no circumstances borrow from your 401k. it could leave you very vulnerable. For instance, let’s say you borrow the $50k, and then are laid off. if that happens you must IMMEDIATELY pay off the $50k loan. otherwise you will have to pay taxes AND a penalty on the $50k loan as though it were income.
don’t do this.
lastly
I’m still not sure about responding to this, because I almost feel as though these numbers are made up. if they are not made up, I apologize for thinking so.
i have a hard time believing that any bank would do this deal.
“State of Income indeed.”
And yet there was an article in a major newspaper recently about problems in the “all-day” mortgage market.
http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2008/08/mti-wapo-hears-mortgage-voices.html
Thanks. My car could use a wax job, actually. Where can I collect my prize?
No matter what, thank you for the tips. I realized some people are really mean here, some people are nice here. All I can say, by the end of the day, we all go to the same place, why being mean, really sorry for some people. Have a good day. 🙂
Depends on how hard you want to throw the dice. All things being equal, a 2BR is way more desirable and a bigger market than a 1BR.
If you think your income will steadily increase, and/or you have reason to believe will get married in the near future it may be worth it. But it is a long term play, for sure. And make sure you have enough cash to cover payments if your roomie does not.
Great price, but need roommate? Don’t do that!
In contract … I agree with those who say don’t walk, run to the exit. In all my years I have found that if I have to ask the question “should I or not?” I generally know the answer is NOT. For all the reasons others have stated here the answer is a double no … sharing a two bedroom with someone you know and love is one thing … with a total stranger who may turn out to be a nightmare just so you can eat and perhaps pay taxes is quite another. Stay cool because you really can’t afford this want-not-need place … rent for now, and keep looking for something you can afford.
I just got off the phone with ICAI – and after almost an hour of meaningful conversation, I can say with complete confidence that he is legit (and a nice guy).
You can be bitter all you want Jimmy, but you don’t have to be rude too.
First of all, sorry that I did not even know that I was considered hijacking posts. I am terribly sorry. I guess I just thou it is more like a blog.
However, every word I said is true and from my heart. If you guys do not believe me, go to The-Infinity and ask them whether I am telling the truth.
My last advice is that maybe there should a a blog somewhere for the community to chat or to exchange comments. Just a thought.
Lastly, I have to saw I have visited many sites, this is one of the best, that is also why I started to seek profession tips. Again, I am sorry if I did break the rules.
Again, adding a blog maybe a good idea for SF buyers to share comments instead of walking in the dark and get bullied by Developers or unethically realtors.
Thank you for whoever replied and hope you all have a wonderful home. 🙂
phatty, are you saying that 9b sold for $750K?
I’m surprised you can get two bedrooms with 1300+ sf in a new building with great amenities for less than $550 sf. I don’t know the unit but even with no view it sounds reasonable, and with a private outdoor space even better.
Good Luck.
My one bit of financial advice is to always remember the “what ifs?”, don’t over commit your cash flow, keep some liquid reserves and don’t count your capital gains until the asset is sold.
Have enough saving to pay for a year’s worth of expenses and leave some headroom in your cashflow and you will have some cushion for life’s curveballs.
used 1371 instead of 1317 so under $570psf, still good. I paid $628 psf for a top floor unit in 2004.
Fluj…is that you?
I’m saying I believe ICAT is being honest to the best of his knowledge.
Like you, I find that price a bit hard to believe – but I have no reason to disbelieve it. Last year when I put an offer down on the Infinity, I was told they were 75-80% sold, and that Tower 2 started selling Summer of ’08. Last Sunday, I was told 80-85% sold and Tower 2 starts Q1 ’09. This tells me sales are next to stagnant, and reservations or Tower 2 are delayed because the #’s for Tower 1 are too low. Couple that with the fact that the remaining units in Tower I are the least desirable, in a down market with no bottom in the near future, and I could see 750k happening. It only makes sense that the Infinity would begin close-out discounts on Tower I.
There are probably a lot of people in line for Tower 2. Right now the Infinity is trying to sell Tower 1 by warning that 2 will be more expensive. In this market, I don’t think many people will believe that. The only way to prevent newcomers from jumping in the Tower 2 line is to discount.
*** The sales center also told me the finishings of Tower 2 will be the same as 1. I’d heard in the past (from Socketsite) that Tower 2 would be much nicer – to go along with higher prices.
OMG, those numbers would make me puke. Are you seriously, really, considering, on a (after tax) income of $5,600, buying a place that would cost $6500 (including taxes)??
ARE YOU SERIOUS?? Assuming you are not joking/troll, let me put this in terms you can understand: DO NOT DO IT.
I bring in 15,000 a month (pre tax, self employed) my wife $3500 (post tax) plus investment and business income, and I wouldn’t even consider spending $6500 a month for housing. $2400 hundo renting. And bitching about that being too high.
Maybe I’m wrong on the other side (should I be buying?), but I AM CERTAIN YOU SHOULD NOT BE PAYING MORE THAN YOUR INCOME IN HOUSING. And counting on roomates that could bankrupt you by not paying rent? And borrowing from your 401k? My god man get ahold of yourself. Buying, beyond your means, is no way to have fun on the weekends. Rent for $1700 and you’ll be laughing.
I wouldn’t put much faith in 9B in the tower selling for 750k. Where did that info come from?
In-contract,
I don’t think you are buying here such that you have a place to live in the city. I think you are trying to buy here to catch future appreciation.
Then, go buy something for upto $450K in District 7 or 8. You will be able to afford, plus you are in for the next wave of appreciation.
wow.
this thread is so intersesting when it is amalgamated from the various other threads. It reads very differently than it occurred in real time.
ICAT: I hate to say this, but regardless of any math games we play you cannot afford the 2BR or even the 1BR at the infinity. What you can afford at this time is to rent until your already-owned 1BR unit becomes available. At that time you can either move into that, or you can sell it and use the proceeds to buy a different condo.
sometimes someone just has to be honest. I will do so. You. cannot. afford. it.
Luckily, there are tons of awesome rentals that you can afford easily, so you’ll have some great digs while you firm up your balance sheet.
also: this is not legal advice, but I BELIEVE there may be a window of opportunity where you can withdraw your contract offer at the Infinity without penalty, but get legal advice before doing this. (you can do this in other states, but I forget if you can do it in California).
good luck to you.
You should have 7 days under federal ILSA and your contract should state this (not legal advice)
Brings new meaning to the term “housegambler”.
“I wouldn’t put much faith in 9B in the tower selling for 750k. Where did that info come from?”
The info came from In Contract at Infinity’s ‘friend’ who allegedly purchased the unit. At $750K for the 1317 sq. ft unit the price would be over “one meeeillion dollars” [insert pinkie into corner of mouth] LESS than the $1.77m paid by the buyer of 20B [same configuration, just 11 floors up] in early March. It does sound like a stretch to me … either that or the unit gets almost no light in addition to no view … or the sales office has really changed its tune and is aggressively moving the merchandise.
I like good views but there’s no way I’d pay “One meeeillion dollars” just for a decent view
😐
`
(that’s Dr. Evil with a pinkie in his mouth)
I agree with ex-sfer. Get out of the deal; you can not afford this unit or any other at the Infinity. You’re also better off renting a 1BR in the city rather than getting a roommate and still being broke at the end of the day.
BTW, the “Chunkie” comment is classic….still laughing out loud about that one 😉
In-Contract-At-Infinity is not for real. His earlier messages are in in broken English and his later ones are in perfect English.
94114, he is foreign, and I imagine English is a second language for him. The grammar in all the posts I’ve read have been consistent…?
Phatty,
Read his last post at 7:55 PM last night. His broken English suddenly wasn’t broken.
I still think the whole ICAI is a hoax, but I guess I’d have to trust phatty when he said it seemed legit from his phone conversation.
But the numbers don’t seem sensible.
Look at “Posted by: In-Contract-At-Infinity at September 10, 2008 1:39 PM”
He says his take home pay per month is $5600 per month (net after taxes and 401(k). So, that’s a gross annual salary of about $110K-120K (at most), right? What bank today is lending $635K (more than times income!) to someone with this level of income? Isn’t the DTI coverage ratio off the charts? Don’t you have to document everything now (even with 20-25% down) on a condo? I haven’t searched for financing, but am I off base here?
re: comment at 7:55
“unethically realtors” still sounds like broken english to me.
IMPORTANT UPDATE: We just confirmed that unit 9B at The Infinity is in contract for over $1,000,000. And while “ICAI” might be legit, all of his facts are not.
Once again, our thanks to everyone who responded sincerely, our apologies for any confusion, and with respect to this entire thread…”Read And Respond At Your Own Risk!”
94114 – I reread the post at 7:55PM… and maybe you should invest in some bifocals? 🙂
Satchel – thnx for the trust. I can see why people would be skeptical, but I don’t think someone would go to the trouble of explaining and elaborating as he has done, for a hoax. I don’t know how difficult the lending standards actually are in todays market – maybe other can chime in? I know the reason his mortgage would be 4700, and not 4k is because he’d need a higher interest 2nd as a result of the high DTI. If/When I ever buy, I plan on more straight forward financing. So I have no idea if getting a 1st with a 2nd, and HELOC too is even possible? He seemed to think it wouldn’t be a problem. Maybe having the owned rental unit as collateral helps?
And as far as 9B goes – that price is difficult to believe. Maybe his friend exaggerates. Who knows. I can bring myself to believe the price based on the criteria outlined in my last post; but perhaps my desire to believe it has overridden my better judgment. At that price I’d probably step off the sidelines and purchase (and I would love to own – especially at the Infinity).
If someone has more insight or clarification on the Infinity & the 1st towers remaining units, I’d invite them to my housewarming for it. 🙂
oops – didn’t notice that Mr. Socket had provided us with a confirmation before that last post. Well there you have it.
I got all excited for awhile there, and now I’m a tad bit crushed :). But thanks for saving me a trip to the sales office this weekend.