CFAH

Described as a “gut check for SF realtors” when it sold on 6/1/2005 (establishing a new Noe Valley neighborhood comp at $1,500,000), 869 Alvarado appears to have been refinanced a few times since closing escrow. And if PropertyShark is correct, the property is currently facing foreclosure with an unpaid mortgage balance of $1,497,746.

Comments from Plugged-In Readers

  1. Posted by San FronziScheme

    There’s a house with a broken staircase and windows on the 800 block Alvarado. It looks abandonned. Is this the place? Any tipsters?

  2. Posted by urban_angst

    The deserted house with the broken stairs is next door at 873 Alvarado.

  3. Posted by Brian

    Yes, it looks like it is going to auction on May 13th. Here are the details. http://www.propertyshark.com/mason/san_francisco/Reports2/showsection.html?propkey=30507377
    If anyone goes to the auction, I would love to hear whether an investor picks it up or it goes to the bank.

  4. Posted by fluj

    wow. If this is true I cannot wait for the NOT list to come out.

  5. Posted by San FronziScheme

    Thanks urban_angst. I haven’t been on that block since I heard of the foreclosure 3 days ago.
    That’s an abandonned house next to a foreclosure. Not too nice for the nabe. But it’s a great area with decent houses going for 1.5M+. As fluj mentioned in another thread, the lot is 1.5 times the typical backyard. That’s a big big plus on a south-facing pretty flat backyard.

  6. Posted by Foolio

    Wow. Things sure have changed in the last 2 years.

  7. Posted by mr. green

    I know the owners. They are current and not going to foreclosure.

  8. Posted by fluj

    So they want $1.5M (or $1,497,745) at auction. They bought it for $1.5, so here is an apple for you all! Seems like there might have been divorce in there, but that they borrowed more than enough to “pay themselves back.”

  9. Posted by San FronziScheme

    “I know the owners. They are current and not going to foreclosure.”
    Then that might be a typo from the part of PropertyShark
    browse with an SF account, the listing is in the middle of the page as of today.
    http://www.propertyshark.com/mason/Foreclosures/
    There’s also the newletter:
    http://propertyshark.com/mason/text/servicedetail/sfnewsletter11.html
    Maybe your friends should contact the webmaster to have this corrected.

  10. Posted by unearthly

    Looks like the owners of 869 Alvarado were using their house as an ATM:
    Loan 1 (6/1/2005): $750k Variable/1st
    Loan 2 (6/1/2005): $240k Fixed/2nd
    Loan 3 (10/11/2005): $220k Variable/Refi
    Loan 4 (6/16/2006): $300k Variable/Refi

  11. Posted by San FronziScheme

    990 in loans in 6/2005 plus 2 refis for 520 in less than a year.
    That’s not an ATM, that’s an IRA! The bank got hosed Florida-style.

  12. Posted by fluj

    It’s showing as if the auction is going to happen on the application I use, too. The thing is that often behind the scenes the owners are scrambling to prevent the foreclosure from happening. Just because something is scheduled doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. Often down at the steps they’ll tell you it’s postponed or cancelled. If Mr. Green is right, this one is gonna be cancelled.
    It’s not about “contacting webmasters to have it corrected.” It’s about these internet tools not being completely current. (Tbat goes for ALL of these Internet tools, btw.)
    Unearthly, that break down isn’t correct. There are more loans than that. ANd the 220K amount looks to me like a buyout to one of the owner’s wife.

  13. Posted by fluj

    Fronzi, they put 510K down in the first place.

  14. Posted by San FronziScheme

    Fronzi, they put 510K down in the first place.
    And it didn’t take them long to pull 520 out the next year.
    Equity is not as good as cash in the pocket now is it?

  15. Posted by unearthly

    Those are just the loans recorded per PropertyShark and do not include any resales. A Title search would be needed to sort out the details. If the auction is happening next week then the process was probably initiated at least 4 months ago. Unless there is a white knight ready to gobble up the existing loans I can’t see how this one avoids auction.
    @ Fluj – How many more loans were taken out?

  16. Posted by San Fronzischeme

    >
    The bank must be crazy to let the auction happen. The house and the lot must be worth much more.
    Why don’t they allow an extra refi for 300K so that the owners can have the cash to stay “current” for a year or two?
    That’s probably how a lot of foreclosed owners could afford the mortgages in the first place.

  17. Posted by fluj

    Fronzi,
    Your conclusions/statements regarding like three different aspects here were incorrect but if you want to continue speaking on the subject and drawing more conclusions from material I provide, feel free. It’s humorous.
    Unearthly,
    I count 12 loans. This is pretty convoluted. What was paid back and what wasn’t. There’s even one 19K default amount mixed in … not sure what that’s about. From what I can tell these guys paid themselves back and then some, even including what seems to be a buyout.
    If you look at the permitting they didn’t do much. That reads like they might have started work without permits only to get busted for it.

  18. Posted by San FronziScheme

    drawing more conclusions from material I provide, feel free. It’s humorous.
    fluj,
    You make no sense. What material?
    I did a post announcing the auction of 869 Alavarado there at 8:43AM :
    https://socketsite.com/archives/2008/05/fannie_mae_to_market_its_not_getting_better_but_rather.html#comments
    Then the “gut check” thread started at 9:52AM. The good people at SocketSite do read the posts for tips.

  19. Posted by fluj

    You suggested contacting the webmaster at Property Shark to correct an error. That’s not how it works. He only sees what everyone else sees. Trustor and trustee agreements happen behind the scenes and banks update on Fridays before auctions.
    Next, your conclusion about unearthly’s post. They only repaid themselves for monies down. At that point it time 100% financing was common. This wasn’t an ATM machine example, yet.
    You respond to my post saying same with “Equity is not as good as cash in the pocket.” Well, considering they may have gone on to cash out for another perhaps 350-400K, THERE beginning house as ATM treatment, I’d say that’s not quite right either.
    What’s funny is that this is that it blew all of our minds back when it went to probate auction and sold for 1.5M. If Mr. Green is right this won’t go to foreclosure auction. But if not, this property could get bid up a lot more than that. This is easily a $3.5M property in the hands of the right developer.

  20. Posted by San FronziScheme

    You suggested contacting the webmaster at Property Shark to correct an error. That’s not how it works.
    Having everyone know you’re being foreclosed is pretty hard on a reputation, especially if you’re current. I would do everything in my power to have the data corrected, or else I’d sue them for spreading false information. Every web site has a manual override on what’s “ETL”ed from other sources. Ask the people at Zillow if they didn’t do a few adjustments here and there.
    They only repaid themselves for monies down.
    This is so 2006. Risk nothing and let a bigger fool pay you out. They propably got a good loan with the 510 down, then withdrew the cash. Net they made 10K plus probably the fees as they often were bundled into the financing at that time. Maybe an extra 60-80K.
    Account for the free fees, the extra cash and the lower rate that went with a low loan/value ratio and you’ve got very smart people playing the game.
    it blew all of our minds back when it went to probate auction and sold for 1.5M.
    Not so much. Houses do sell for that price on the blocks around this one.
    Cash in pocket comment
    If you have $0 in the house you don’t have to worry about a housing crisis. With 510K of skin in the game, you’re a bit exposed for a downturn.
    This is easily a $3.5M property in the hands of the right developer.
    Just because someone has put a 3.5M “Make me Move” tentative offer on Redfin just a stone’s throw from there on Hoffman doesn’t mean it will sell at that price.
    But it’s very easy to back this up: show up at the stairs next week, buy the place, hire a good contractor and go for it, we’re all behind you.
    You’re so knowledgeable (and a hero for all Realtors as it seems), I’m sure a Realtor/Mortgage Broker friend will help you out for this slam dunk.

  21. Posted by fluj

    “Just because someone has put a 3.5M “Make me Move” tentative offer on Redfin ”
    Who cares? I never look at resources like Redfin for reasons I got into above.
    “Not so much. Houses do sell for that price on the blocks around this one.”
    No. Not for total fixers. Not then. Not even now, fronzi.
    It’s 1920 feet with an full attic and rooms down. It’s a double size, level, south facing lot. $3.5M is conservative. The hurdle is getting a garage in there. NIMBYs will cry “historic.”
    “knowledgeable, hero, slam dunk, etc”.
    I’ll ignore those.
    But I bet the owners work it out. People are resourceful. What’s odd is how they haven’t done anything yet really.

  22. Posted by san FronziScheme

    I forgot. Before you bring a developer to build a 3.5M place there, watch out for the neighbors. They are stingy on this block.

  23. Posted by fluj

    Man. If you walked a mile in my shoes you would know all about NIMBYism in this town. Disregard anything and everything else I say. No biggie. Trust that, tho.

  24. Posted by San FronziScheme

    It’s 1920 feet with an full attic and rooms down.
    OK.
    It’s a double size, level, south facing lot.
    Not double. 1.5 times. But who’s counting? I agree it’s a nice lot (and I am the one mentioning leveled, remember? “conclusions from material I provide, feel free. It’s humorous.”)
    $3.5M is conservative.
    You lost me there. 1920sf would make it a 1800+/sf property.
    I forgot, there is the “good developer” thing. Good to have friends.
    This house on 4331 23rd street has a great view, 2242 sf on 3 levels, a south-facing back-yard with a great view. And a car garage and is zoned RH2 with 2 units. Did I mention it went for 1.501M or 700/sf?
    http://www.propertyshark.com/mason/Reports2/showsection.html?propkey=30507592
    The hurdle is getting a garage in there. NIMBYs will cry “historic”
    They’ll cry “don’t block my view” or “your windows look into my place”. You’ll need to make friends with them to get anything done.
    On this block. 1.5M is the current entry point for a house. 850 for a full floor condo. Good luck with your developer dream.

  25. Posted by anonycrank

    Ha. Thats gonna suck for comps when the bank lists it back for 20% less.
    I guess its worth $500K to not throw money away on rent.

  26. Posted by nowonderitcostsomuchhere

    So how insane is the planning department? I understand that neighbors can hold you up but can they (meaning the planning department or neighbors) prevent a project from going forward in any way shape or form?

  27. Posted by fluj

    “You lost me there. 1920sf would make it a 1800+/sf property.”
    I did lose you there, indeed. Yet you continue.
    “This house on 4331 23rd street has a great view, 2242 sf on 3 levels, a south-facing back-yard with a great view. And a car garage and is zoned RH2 with 2 units. Did I mention it went for 1.501M or 700/sf?”
    And your point is what? That two units, especially ones like this, are typically worth less in Noe? That the lot is 1900+ feet smaller? That it needed some work and still went for $1.5M?
    “They’ll cry “don’t block my view” or “your windows look into my place”. You’ll need to make friends with them to get anything done.”
    I know all about it, bro. I wonder if you do. You don’t need to make friends. You’ll need intestinal fortitude, a good designer or architect with knowledge of how building/planning are navigated, and perhaps a lawyer (hopefully not).
    “On this block. 1.5M is the current entry point for a house. 850 for a full floor condo. Good luck with your developer dream.”
    Thanks. We’ll probably pass. Someone else won’t. I’m not going to explain to you what you don’t understand here. You’re too snide.

  28. Posted by urban_angst

    The owners paid their tax bill in December but they’re delinquent on their April installment.
    That probably signals temporary trouble rather than a pattern that would result in foreclosure.
    Besides, you would list this to at least test the market before allowing the bank to straight up take it away.
    My crystal ball says it won’t be available at auction next week.

  29. Posted by fluj

    …. and I didn’t need anybody to tell me the lot is flat. My own eyes showed me that when I visited the property repeatedly in the spring of 2005 with a contractor, an architect and an investor in tow. They passed due to a fear or NIMBYism. (It seems their fears may have been justified.) But they were willing to go up to $1.3M or so. This group was very aggressive.
    So needless to say the $1.5M figure it grabbed in probate court was the talk of the town for a minute there, back then. It’s interesting that the auction figure will be the same. 2008 Noe prices are not lower than 2005 Noe prices. Rather, the 41 SFRs so far this year have averaged 870 a foot. Contrast that with 2005’s 172 sales at 763 a foot avg.

  30. Posted by San FronziScheme

    urban_angst,
    Being delinquent on ONE installment does not send the property straight to the auction does it? How could that happen?
    fluj,
    A 3.5M property at 870 a SF would need to be 4000sf big, or double the current size. That would be a really big house for this block but I agree the big lot would allow for it.

  31. Posted by San FronziScheme

    fluj,
    No need to patronize.
    This is a set of blocks I know very well. The 2 unit bulding at 4331 (did you see the place?) was used as a one unit by the ladies who moved to Oakland. Then they marketed it as a 2-unit as it can work that way and can be attractive for someone who wants extra rental income. Their Realtor listed it for 1.4M and it triggered several bids.
    About the Nimby attitude, I’ve seen neighbors in this area getting their projects through with no real opposition and others being blocked for a mere 30 sf of extra deck. The difference: in the latter case, the guy next door wanted to be the only one with a big deck. Actually, this last sentence was very close to what the problem was: 2 guys getting at it just for a question of size…
    Being a good neighbor is almost a pre-requisite in this area. It’s not like some parts of Bernal Heights where almost every work is good as long as you get rid of the freaking peeling paint!

  32. Posted by fluj

    fronzi,
    “A 3.5M property at 870 a SF would need to be 4000sf big, or double the current size. That would be a really big house for this block but I agree the big lot would allow for it.”
    Yeah, agreed, and that’s exactly what somebody would do IMO. Or it’s one play at any rate. But simply extrapolating the average onto the property isn’t all that accurate though. The higher end in Noe can actually command more per foot. In the last six months the $2.5M+ properties have averaged 882 a foot.

  33. Posted by fluj

    Also, you got it wrong about Bernal. Over here they can throw the book at you regardless of what you want to do. There’s a actually a separate design review board for Bernal!

  34. Posted by San FronziScheme

    I walked thru Holly park the other day and I thought to myself: this area could be great! Why the peeling paint? Don’t the people around care?

  35. Posted by Someone

    Fluj,
    I was also a prospect buyer @2005, with very similar development ideas. The price point was insane IMO, and the double lot is offset with the historic nature of the house which would make an addition quite challenging.
    Surely the prices in Noe moved since ’05, BUT I’d argue that the rise in construction costs and more importantly outlook (2-3 yrs out) has been driving fixer prices down.
    1.5 was crazy then and crazy now.
    Looking at the permit history the buyer didn’t much work

  36. Posted by fluj

    That’s Bernal for you, tho. It isn’t all the way gentrified and you have a lot of older folks whose houses have gotten away from them. Noe was like this 10 years ago. And you can still see a decrepit house or two on nearly every block of Noe. In fact, that’s SF for you. We’re a city of little houses.

  37. Posted by fluj

    someone,
    It’s a nutty price to pay for a fixer, agreed. Would somebody do it though? I think so. Could the right person turn a nice profit? I think yeah on that too.
    It seems like they tried to maybe do some work and got flagged for it. Hard to tell.
    Point taken about construction, although labor has gotten cheaper lately due to skilled carpenter layoffs from unions. And i agree fixer prices are down a bit from ’06 and ’07. But I think they’re up still from’05. Look at 1566 Sanchez. It just closed for 850K and it needs a garage and an addition. Two years ago that house sells for 900+, easily.

  38. Posted by San FronziScheme

    Very true about Noe, fluj. But the price pressure is pushing a lot of older folks out around me and small houses are going for a major redo one after another.
    What’s amazing is the switcheroo game of locals vs. construction workers between 8AM and 9:30AM in all the nabe. Suddenly at 10AM it’s another place.

  39. Posted by San FronziScheme

    Anyone knows the deal for this property? Wasn’t it supposed to be auctioned or was it withdrawn in time?

  40. Posted by fluj

    The auction was to have been yesterday. The service I use does not show an update as of yet.

  41. Posted by sfrenegade

    Does anyone have an update on this place? Looks like it hasn’t been foreclosed on yet. However, the assessor’s site says that taxes are unpaid:
    “This property has prior years’ delinquent tax bills. Please check the Redemption Tax roll or contact the Redemption Unit at (415) 554-4499 for more information.Our records indicate that you may have an impound account set up with your lender to pay your property tax bill. Please check with your lender to make sure that your property tax bill is paid on time. Please pay this property tax bill if you don’t or no longer have an arrangement with your lender.”

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