We just noticed a fresh comment on an old post concerning price reductions at The Infinity:
“I’m considering a 1270 sq ft 2 bedroom on the 28th floor facing the financial district. It’s priced at about 1142/sq ft. Given there are only 9 of these units with the large curved patio and the fact that the 28th floor and up all come with upgrades, would you say this is still over priced? At $1142/ sq ft, I feel there’s room for the price to adjust when the second release comes out. Offer expires tomorrow [12/13] noon, any input would be appreciated!!!!”
We’re going to qualify that “any input would be appreciated,” if it’s not constructive input (whether pro or con the purchase), it will be deleted without apology or notice. Now how about helping a fellow reader out?
∙ Reductions At The Infinity? [SocketSite]
I bought at Infinity a few months ago and back then they had the same 1270sqft unit on the 30-something floor going for 1.8M. So if that unit sold for that asking price then who knows, the price may be reasonable. Your unit is suppose to have one of the longest and largest balconies in the building with both city, twin peaks, and partial bay views. And like you said, there’s only 9 of those models in the whole development…
I bought a 2 bed corner unit with pano bridge and bay views on the 30-something floor for around $1000/sqft. But I got in on the first week so those prices are long gone…
Are you buying it to make money, or are you buying it because you want to live at that location and have a great view? If you’re thinking of this as a place to live and not an investment, then I think you should be happy there (as long as you stop worrying that someone else is getting a better deal than you.) But if you’re worried about appreciation and resale value and what you’re neighbor paid and all that stuff, new development speculation obviously isn’t for you.
Thanks to Infinity buyer and Anonymous for the responses!
I’m buying this to live in for a maximum of 5 years (selling in about 2012). So yes I do care about what kind of plan and view I get and so forth, but I would certainly like it to be a good investment as well.
28th is the lowest floor of that plan, and each floor up is 50k more. So I guess they never really lowered their price on that plan if they asked for 1.8 for a higher floor before. I was also told that the last one of that plan they sold was over a month ago. Not exactly a very popular one, I guess.
I’m debating if I should wait for the second release because I feel the 2nd release, with better view, might come out around 1000/sqft as well(?) There will be a lot more competition then (1Rincon 2nd release, Millennium tower etc.) What do you guys think??
11 hours to go, I can’t sleep.
Stella
Btw, tks to the mod for putting this post at the right place. It’s my 3rd day to this wonderful site and still haven’t found my way around yet.
I know a few clients that have considered those, but decided to pass for the same 2nd Towers probably going to be the better deals/views etc reason. Last I checked(2 months ago, so it could have changed?) the Infinity was also not giving any special incentives/rebates to it’s buyers or buyers agents. If you’re working with a broker ask him/her to look for any end of year special incentives and pass some of that along to you. I know that’s what I’ve done for people.
I get most of my information from Socket Site. If you have been reading recent positings you will see that new developments such as the Hayes and the Book Depository are asking $1,000 per square foot. Whether they actually get this, I can’t say. The Infinity however is in a much more desireable location,designed by a premier architectural firm, will likely have much better finishes and you would be on the 28th floor with views. I would say $1142 is a good price.
Just curious. Are you buying with a fixed rate or an option arm?
Purchasing real-estate has inherent risks. Purchasing in a “developing” area/neighborhood increases those risks. Buying pre-construction amplifies those risks even more. Purchasing in the uncertain market we find ourselves in now does anything but diminish those risks. Essentially, by locking you into a price now for a property you will take possession of later, the developers are guaranteed the return they want, and you are taking the gamble. At a $1000+ per-square-foot price, this unit at the Infinity surpasses the pricing of most every luxury property in San Francisco. If I had that kind of money to spend, I might consider an existing property in an established neighborhood, whose history of sales and appreciation you could track. And, if it were a similar high-rise condominium development, you would also have access to the building’s (and association’s) history and have a much better idea of what you might be dealing with in the future. With new construction, it’s a blank slate and a gamble.
Actually, $1000/sq ft is about right (Brannan, St. Regis, Watermark are all that much or more).
My rule of thumb is that new properties are generally overpriced by 10%, because people like new units, they get a better selection, can pick the finishes, etc.
I wouldn’t expect a lot of appreciation at that price, but it’ll be a nice place to live.
“At a $1000+ per-square-foot price, this unit at the Infinity surpasses the pricing of most every luxury property in San Francisco.”
Not true. Prices for upper level ‘view’ units at the Brannan, Watermark, 88 King, etc all sell for well above $1000 sqft. I believe some premium units at Brannon and Watermark went for $1400-1500 sqft! The Regis, Four Seasons, Ritz start around $1200 sqft, even higher for upper floors.
I agree we’re buying in an uncertain market. But, SF is probably ‘safer’ than other markets around the bay area and though appreciation may slow or flatten for a few years, certainly we’re not headed for a crash. Also, I don’t think Infinity’s location is in a “developing” area. It’s a block from the Embarcadero, and very close to restaurants and businesses and downtown. 1Rincon’s location may qualify as a “developing” area.
The second tower will be 1-2 years behind the first (at best). As such, if you really want to live at the Infinity, it sounds like your decision has more to do with timing than anything else. And I wouldn’t roll the dice on tower two.
Also, and somewhat stating the obvious, be sure to drill the sales office on the impact of construction on the second tower – not only on noise/views/parking, but also on any common areas that might be affected.
1142/sqft might be completely overpriced depending on what the unobstructed view looks like. If it’s clear and you can actually see more than just the buildings downtown, then maybe it’s not completely off the deep end.
However, if not, you’d be nuts to buy that place for that price per sqft in this current market. I purchased a 1240 sqft 2-2 unit at 1Rincon on around the 29th floor facing downtown/Twin Peaks/Golden Gate bridge WITH UPGRADES for $842/sqft. Yes, I did get in very early, but even so, you’re telling me that a 26% difference in price for what are “arguably” equivalent projects is justified just because the early pre-pre-pre sale period is over?
I think not.
Based on what is *currently* selling, $1142/sqft doesn’t sound out of line (depending upon the view). What units were selling for in the “VIP/Friends and Family/Day One” release in any building is now irrelevant (unless you have a time machine).
“Based on what is *currently* selling, $1142/sqft doesn’t sound out of line (depending upon the view). What units were selling for in the “VIP/Friends and Family/Day One” release in any building is now irrelevant (unless you have a time machine).”
I have no argument with this poster’s general premise, we are in the here and now, but a 26% difference in price as between the VIP period and the general pre-construction period? That point must still be addressed objectively.
“…but a 26% difference in price as between the VIP period and the general pre-construction period? That point must still be addressed objectively.”
Actually, it’s a 35% difference in price. $1142-$842/$842.
[Removed by Editor]
That “26% difference” is between two different units, in two different buildings, and at two different times. Talk about ‘apples to oranges’.
“That “26% difference” is between two different units, in two different buildings, and at two different times. Talk about ‘apples to oranges’.”
The only thing that I would concede as this poster’s comment is the last part, and that’s not enough to explain it. There’s no way you’re going to convince me that, for argument’s sake, the Infinity is such a superior project for a roughly equivalent unit such that it can demand a price that is 35% higher than the VIP price.
[Editor’s Note: And we’re not going to try, but we are going to stop the hijacking of this post. Back to the Infinity…]
“[Editor’s Note: And we’re not going to try, but we are going to stop the hijacking of this post. Back to the Infinity…]”
With all due respect to the Editor’s ultimate power to use censorship on its privately run website, the Infinity does not exist in a real estate vacuum. I would argue that price metrics from other comparable projects are empirically relevant to your reader’s question. I will be pleasantly surprised if this post remains under this topic, but at least I tried to provide helpful information.
Good luck, Stella.
[Editor’s Note: Current price comparisons with other buildings are directly relevant and welcome (see comments above). Reducing this post to just another One Rincon v Infinity debate is not. Regardless, thanks for helping Stella. And thanks for “plugging in.”]
Ok, I won’t mention another development, but regarding the price, we’re talking “pre-release VIP” pricing vs “several releases later” pricing. I’m not saying 26% increase is justified, but most developments raise prices after the initial vip release.
Even if you bought today at that highrise development near the bay bridge onramp, you’d be paying over $1000/sqft. Those days of $850ish/sqft are long long gone…
“Even if you bought today at that highrise development near the bay bridge onramp, you’d be paying over $1000/sqft. Those days of $850ish/sqft are long long gone…”
I don’t disagree with this comment. However, it seems to me that no one is willing to step up to the plate and squarely address whether $1142/sqft is overpriced for that particular unit. I personally think that it is, but opinion by itself is not enough without something to back it up. The only thing that we can look to are comparable units and the prices that they are currently being offered at.
“Even if you bought today at that highrise development near the bay bridge onramp, you’d be paying over $1000/sqft.”
That statement is a complete red herring and totally skirts the issue related to Stella’s inquiry. Initial purchasers and the people that they will eventually sell to haven’t and won’t think about this for two seconds once the neighborhood is fully developed.
The real question is, is $1142/sqft a good deal for this particular unit at the Infinity. Answer, No, it’s not.
“However, it seems to me that no one is willing to step up to the plate and squarely address whether $1142/sqft is overpriced for that particular unit.”
Exactly! And discussion on this point is what will help the original poster feel confident about either moving forward with or being released from a commitment to buy the unit. My earlier post was simply an attempt to highlight that this area of the city has few developments that allow one to track a long history of values and appreciation: The Brannan, Hills Plaza, 200 Brannan and SF Towers are examples. If the prospective buyer is set on buying in SoBe and wants to examine some value trends, looking at the histories of units in these developments would be helpful. But, if the buyer is specifically set on the Infinity, only a “pricing” comparison, not a value comparison, is possible.
“However, it seems to me that no one is willing to step up to the plate and squarely address whether $1142/sqft is overpriced for that particular unit.”
Posted by: Anonymous at December 13, 2006 8:18 AM
“The Infinity however is in a much more desireable location,designed by a premier architectural firm, will likely have much better finishes and you would be on the 28th floor with views. I would say $1142 is a good price.”
I see a few posts that thinks it’s a fair price…
“The Infinity however is in a much more desireable location,designed by a premier architectural firm, will likely have much better finishes and you would be on the 28th floor with views. I would say $1142 is a good price.”
Says who, the 90+% of people that are in contract already at certain other developments or the ???%%% of people that are in contract at Infinity?
That statement has no credibility without hard facts to back them up. And the only part of this poster’s comment that may justifiably lead to a higher price is the superior location. Everything else is a push in my personal opinion, the design, the floor plans and the finishings at the Infinity are without question inferior to other unnamed developments in the area.
Such anger (anon at 3:28)!
I think $1142 a sq/ft is fair price for the unit, the floor, the location, etc. It’s within the price range of units nearby (I have a friend who paid over $1200 sq/ft for a 9th floor unit at the Watermark).
Ultimately something is only worth what someone will pay for it. Personally, I wouldn’t buy it because for that price I’d rather be somewhere else. But if that’s the kind of place you want, that’s the price you have to pay.
“Personally, I wouldn’t buy it because for that price I’d rather be somewhere else. But if that’s the kind of place you want, that’s the price you have to pay.”
Mike is unwittingly or maybe wittingly making the very case for why it’s a bad idea to buy. Unless the buyer is an instant gratification type person, just be patient and you’ll be able to find something that is just as good for likely closer to $1000/sqft. We are not in a $1142/sqft market unless you’re either talking about a one of a kind single condo or home or maybe the penthouse of one of these new high-rise developments.
Back to the concerns of the original poster…if all I had to base the soundness of my decision on was guessing what the unit below or next door to mine may have gone into contract for, I would also anxious about moving forward. I agree with Anon at 3:49’s advice to be patient. SF is a city full of beautiful neighborhoods with fantastic properties (with proven value) in the $1000 square foot price range. One should not be limited to considering only one or two new-construction developments in a very speculative area.
Anon at 3:28 PM needs calm down a little…
I read earlier postings that show that condos with a premium locations, views, floors, etc, can and does command $1200+. The resale data over the past few years back up this data. Now will Infinity ever be worth that much? Certainly, most units won’t. But the ones that do will be the upper floor, water views units, or unique units in limited supply.
Watermark sold a bunch of units at $1200+sqft. Brannan and Regis did the same. And I don’t think most are on the 28th floor.
Heck, when you see the Hayes selling for $1000 sqft, then Infinity looks cheap in comparison…
I doubt this thread is helping stella too much. I wonder though why there is always such passion over the soma condo developments. It is that there are a lot of defensive owners here, or are the marketing agents trolling the boards? I just don’t get it.
Personally, it seems to me that making direct comps to soma condo projects and other SF markets isn’t directly fair. The soma condo market is entirely different in that its actively marketed and managed; and every new unit transaction is clandestine. The rest of the SF market is very normal. Buying a new condo is like buying a new car. It’s not comfortable for anyone. Tactics like deadlines and the threat of rising prices, or fake competition make condo shopping a nightmare (IMO)
Can’t Stella get a list of all soma condo’s resold on the open market and get some comp. sales per sq.ft data? Seems that any RE agent should be able to pull up that data fast. This would be helpful.
The one comment someone else made that I thought was helpful to Stella is that you will likely pay a premium for a brand new place; so if you’re looking for a “deal” than buying new probably isn’t your best bet.
Also, Stella, just because they gave you a deadline doesn’t mean anything. Everything is negotiable; although at this point, it’s very likely that whoever extended you this ‘offer’ and deadline is watching this thread very closely. And they now know how much you like/want this property.
If I were you, I’d call them up and make a counter offer at a much lower $/sq.ft and tell them the offer expires at midnight. I’d shoot for a 5-10% discount. I just don’t think that there is a line of people waiting to buy a soma condo for $1142/sf so I don’t really see why you’re losing sleep over losing this condo.
Not a single person responding to this thread said that they think you are getting a great deal; and I’m sure that if you came on here asking if $888/sf was a good deal that everyone would be telling you it was a steal. You’ve got a few people telling you that you have a fair offer, but certainly not a steal. Although getting some feedback from the board here is helpful, you have to question the value of anonymous input.
Bottom line here, if you don’t have any measurable comps to compare to your offer, than you don’t have enough information to make a confident decision (IMO)
Good luck, let us know what you decide to do!
Eddy
The counter offer was submitted ( No telling on the price…). I’m praying that the deal will come through. I fell in love with this unit because, in addition to the beautiful complex itself, it has the most exciting floor plan I’ve come across with of all the new developments in the area. The Infinity really did a good job differentiating itself. Someone was asking about the view and so forth, unfortunately this unit has a limited view due to its direction and the way the plan is laid out. And the fact that the whole Rincon Hill area will be under construction for the next couple of years worries me quite a bit.
One thing to point out about the Infinity though is that our sales associate there and the general manager are really first class. Both of them really took time and helped us working out a good deal rather than just trying to make a quick sale. We are also buying a few other places, and the Infinity is the only place I can truly say that the process since day one has been simply BS-free and very enjoyable. And to me, this is very important.
If the deal doesn’t come through, I’ll be disappointed yet not surprised. It seems that their sales numbers have actually been picking up rather quickly in the last a couple of months. This is probably the major reason why they stand firm on their prices. I bet the developer couldn’t be happier right now.
Once again, thanks for all the feedback. It was great to see different sides of opinions on this. I don’t know if this will be the most profitable “investment” I make, but definitely will be the most delightful one!
Stella
Stella, congrats on putting an offer. I hope they accept! I bought a 2 bed unit at Infinity a few months ago. Do you mind emailing me? I’d like to discuss the development with you – joseph19711@gmail.com
Also, it’s true about their sales staff. They are very gracious and don’t mind going the extra mile to help you. Certainly, they don’t bs or give you the run-a-round. And they aren’t offended if folks don’t buy.
I’d rather buy in Pac Heights or The Marina any day at $1,000. People not understanding the supply/demand concept will be murdered.
????? Is this an investment property or your residence for the next 5 years? Now I’m skeptical of this whole thread. Good luck, with whatever you do.
Since there’s such strong opinions on this matter, what’s a fair price for a unit like this?? (28th floor or higher, city and some bay views)…
$1000?, $1100/sqft?
Been doing it a while. I used to tell all my buyers the first people into a development would get the best pricing, and 90% of the time the building appreciated as soon as the building sold out. Few exceptions to that existed (88 King, aka 1 Embarcadero South, aka the Towers being the most striking).
Now I’m telling my buyers to wait until the end and get some of the buyer incentives these buildings are being forced to offer – there are going to be exceptions to that (Friends and family plan at 1 Rincon and the Palms to name a couple). Without having seen your actual unit Stella I would venture a guess you perhaps have a keeper.
Huge selling point if there are a limited number of floor plans in a large building. Excellent resale if the bedrooms dont connect (on opposite ends of the unit for privacy). I would say that there are many many comps at $1500sf in Soma throughout. My only advise is you do need a decent view for over $1000 sf partial water or some bridge – otherwise you are being enamored by the ‘new building’ effect and would be better served with a resale in one of the many excellent buildings already standing. Seems like all of The Brannan’s (219, 229, 239 are on sale right now) some with excellent finishes.
PS having worked with all the new development companies I have to say the Mark Company does the best job of finding classy agents – or perhaps they just bring the natural ‘class’ out of them. They are my #1 choice to work with given I have a choice other than my buyer’s decision needs. And no I dont work for the Mark company and never had – just a lot of experience working with them all, and some just plain suck!
Eddy,
Anything I buy and end up selling is a potential investment to me, particularly so when it comes to real estate. However, this specific unit will be my residence for about 5 years. Therefore, I’m willing to accept the fact that this unit may not be a steal at, say, $850/sqft as far as investment goes. But I still need to make sure I’m getting a fair deal in today’s market. I appreciate your comments at 6:16. They were very helpful to my decision.
Stella
Any guess on how many unit are sold/in contract?
Your view will be completely blocked when they build that 41 story tower on the lot across the street. Did they tell you that?
You’re talking about the buildings going up across the street at the existing post office facilities. Stella’s unit is facing toward Market street, the financial district, and Embarcadero, not the post office, so his/her views will not be blocked.
Now is there a 41 story building going up in that direction we don’t know about? There’s no land for any more development toward Market St between Main and Spear, at least for another high rise…
The 41 story tower will go up across Folsom street where the sales office is now. The exact location of the tower is still unclear. It could be on the Spear Street side or on the Main Street side. If it is on the Main Street side, the view from the 28th floor will be completely blocked. If it is on the Spear Street side, the partial water views from the balcony will be blocked. Either way, it won’t be good. I looked at the same condo and decided it was not worth it.
Yeah I saw on the San Francisco Redevelopment website there’s a proposal for a 300ft tower on the Spear side. I don’t think it’s been approved yet, or if it has I couldn’t find info on it.
Where did you get the info it was going to be 41 stories? 300ft is more like 30 stories.
Who is the developer? Thanks.
People in the sales office told me about the development. They said the only unknown was the exact location i.e. Spear vs. Main side. I guess it will be Spear since that location is closer to the waterfront.
Without any concrete plans on even the location, I bet this development is still on the drawing boards. Probably hasn’t even started the permit/approval process with the city.
Interesting to see if and when that will happen. 2012 and beyond I assume…
It is tough to say whether this is overpriced or not. However, given that the inventory for comparable units has increased dramatically over the past several months, the housing market is not expected to appreciate dramatically over the next few years and during that time, thousands of units are expected to hit the market in the Transbay Terminal, Rincon Hill, South Beach and Mission Bay, I wouldn’t think this would be a great investment, especially since you are planning on selling it within 5 years. If you’re looking more long-term (say 10 years), I’d have a different opinion.
Just a thought… limited supply is what pushes price. There are only a small number available at any time at Brannan, St. Regis, and other prime buildings. When there are hundreds available, and more coming, the price should be lower. One Rincon is in the nine hundreds per foot now, up a hundred from the poster who bought early, but still rationally priced. For $1150 a foot, you should be at 2200 Steiner, or 999 Green, or 1870 Jackson, premier buildings in Pac Heights/Russian Hill. Call me crazy…
Nooo… to even consider Infinity’s offer at $1140/sqft for that unit says two posssible things: 1. you have not done enough research and have little idea of what that unit is actually worth today. Or2. you probably have too much cash with no better use. If that’s the case, then I say go for it. I , too, looked at that particular plan. In fact, there are about another dozen of those all sitting at higher levels in the second tower. Sorry, it’s just not as limited as you were told! Buying and LIVING in the first tower also means you’ll be circled by 3 construction sites all within 90 feet away for 2 extra years. I lived once by a high rise construction site. It is a nightmare. But hey, at least they’ll wake you up from it every morning with all that banging!
It does have a longer patio than the corner units, which is nice to have for high rise living. But, the view these units of that plan get is simply worthless because it’s very “stuffed” and flat. Even now before the tower across street is built, all you see is about 10 dated buildings standing in your face unless you pick one at the top floors. Then that’ll kick up the price to almost 2 million. What do you think will happen when you try and sell it to buyers who most likely will come with expectation of a good view given its overpriced bay front location? ( here’s a rule of thumb: when you have trouble finding the horizon or some kind of diminishing point, the “view”, or the lack of in this case, is often very unpleasant to the eyes especially during the day.)
I agree with you, though, that the developer is probably laughing ear to ear right now. But rest for sure it’s not because of their sales numbers but pocketing another innocent buyer that could’ve saved 2 or 3 hundred K if she did a little more homework. Real estate business rests heavily on asymmetry of information. A few weeks of careful research goes a long way.
Also, it’s better not to be blown away by what you see on the floor plan. The reason’s simple, the actual spatial qualities are determined by far more factors than just the plan itself that you see ON PAPER. The floor plans are often exaggerated and beautified by the play of line weights and poche. The cute angles and curves make them even more deceptive ( great job on this one, Infinity!). But remember, we don’t live with a bird eye view. Once you are in the actual space, you’ll realize how those flirty features that you paid big bucks for magically diminish in front of your eyes. Bottom line, understand what you are buying so that you buy what you really like, and don’t overpay it.
If it’s not worth $1140/sqft, then what is a reasonable price?
I think another person mentioned that someone who occupies the first tower will have another 2 years of construction to deal with in the building. I don’t think that this is correct. I live in the area and have been watching the pace of Webcor building the first tower. They average 1 floor per week (sometimes quicker if there are no rain delays). Given that the 2nd tower is currently at street level and within a few weeks, they should have the center part of the building at a point where they can hit that schedule, I figure that the 2nd tower and 2nd shorter building should have the exterior floors done by the end of 2007. If you figure another 6 months of interior work before the units are ready to occupy, I would figure that all construction for The Infinity would be done by mid-2008, so you may only have to deal with the construction in the complex for another 6-8 months or so.
Now, the X factors are whether a high rise will go up across the street where the sales office is, along with the possibility of the 201 Folsom development. This seems to be forgotten about by most people. This is the lot across on Main that is currently being used as a Postal Office lot. Both of these developments (Infinity and 201 Folsom) were approved in 2003 and 201 Folsom is supposed to have a similar structure to The Infinity. It was supposed to beging construction after The Infinity was completed (2009 or 2010). Does anyone know if this will still be the case?
The builder has all the permits and rights to build there. Though I think they are using Infinity as a gauge as whether to build there or not. I don’t think anything is set in stone, but they have a model of the 201 Folsom buildings shown in the sales office so folks can see how the views can be impacted.
The proposed building across the street where the sales office is located now is still in it’s very early stages. I don’t think anything has be done for that plot of land yet…
Stella, curious as to whether they accepted your offer or not and around what price?