Purchased for $749,000 in March of 2007, another one of the four little Donald MacDonald “Urban Townhouses” on Hermann (396) didn’t find a buyer at $795,000 (which would have represented annual appreciation of roughly 5%) and is now asking $779,000 (which would represent annual appreciation of closer to 3%).
And while these little homes aren’t everybody’s cup of tea, we do happen to like little spaces, big windows, and wood burning fireplaces (not to mention the neighborhood).
UPDATE: We also should have noted that 398 Hermann (the little blue one next door which benefits from one less shared wall and a few extra windows) closed escrow on 11/30/2007 with a reported contract price of $747,000.
∙ Listing: 396 Hermann (2/1) – $779,000 [MLS]
∙ One Of Four Little Donald MacDonald Urban Townhouses On Hermann [SocketSite]
I had no idea that old Don designed 800K sheds. Learn something new every day.
This area is great though, and I have generally seen ridiculous overbids for condos around here so far this year.
Feel a little guilty about bashing but my reaction when I walked through this the first weekend was that it’s not my problem that the buyer overpaid in March 2007. The place is very tiny with cramped bedrooms down including a washer/dryer obnoxiously in a closet and an ugly kitchen.
Good luck with this price reduction because I still think it is way overpriced.
Buy high, sell low.
This one still has a ways to fall.
I looked at these a long time ago – 15 years? Not sure. But their selling point then was price. They were cheap, cheap, cheap. No storage. It was housing for urban gentrifiers, entry level. It’s absurd that something like this goes for over 300K.
Agree with dissent. These were developed SPECIFICALLY to be entry level. Don has always designed tiny spaces out of a philosophy that everyone should be able to afford a house. IMHO these projects are way under-built..given that the neighborhood is full of two and three story flats…but so be it, I appreciate the architect’s sentiment (similar philosophy on his later townhouse project on 5th between Folsom and Harrison). But to live in these, you can’t have much stuff!
tiny tiny tiny. but at least its next to a dog poop, homeless and syringe filled park.
The Architect put similar projects up throughout the area, and at least some of the early projects were under $100K. It was a design experiment to reverse engineer from a minimum price point.
Originally they really were an alternate to renting with getting into one similar to renting with first/last and deposit.
I looked at this one when it was for sale in March of 2007. When it sold for what it did I realized how out of step I was with the market. Just made no sense.
I live around the corner and many years ago during dot.com boom these were going for around $300k which still seemed like a lot at the time. It seems you could get much more space / style for your money elsewhere.
We also should have noted that 398 Hermann (the little blue one next door which benefits from one less shared wall and a few extra windows) closed escrow on 11/30/2007 with a reported contract price of $747,000.
Duboce Park is very nice and very convenient, and these tiny places are perfectly OK if you are single. But there are dozens of bigger, nicer SFRs all over town for under $900k now and probably hundreds of condos, all of which would be a far better value than this. These were designed to be, and are, cheap little entry-level places. That the owner overpaid in spades a year ago does not mean it’s worth anything near the asking price. I’ve been wrong many times before, but I really can’t see how anyone could justify paying over $650k for this given the many other offerings out there.
(And to beat a dead horse, I can’t see paying that when you could rent in the same class for far less yet).
spence,
you wrote ” syringe filled park.” any link or do you care to elaborate?
trip,
you wrote “But there are dozens of bigger, nicer SFRs all over town for under $900k now ”
all over town? as in the outer sunset and BV/HP, silver terrace,daly city and the excelsior? any place remotely close to this location? links?
I miss the gas station.
Wait, I just found a really similar property! 2 bedrooms, 1 bathroom, around 800 square feet. And it’s also near a park, which features a club house and game room. It’s a little further north than this place, though:
http://www.morganlane.com/ra9f16662-07b1-4250-9c6d-f92bd829ef97.aspx
Wow! Mobile home living in the heart of San Francisco for only three quarters of a million dollars!!
Paco, just map the SFRs on Redfin from $700k-$900k. There are well over a hundred. And dozens are in perfectly nice neighborhoods — Miraloma Park, Parkside, Bernal Heights, Sunset, Richmond. Condos (which this place is, by the way) in the same price range are even greater in number and in every neighborhood you can imagine. I love the Lower Haight (I live near here), but I don’t think it is considered worth paying a premium, or even a desirable neighborhood, by most.
trip,
my mac won’t play on redfin’s site so i’ll have to take your word for it.
so then, where is the closest sfr under $900k to this property?
I think the Sunset gets you the most house for 700 to 900. Most everywhere else that range is going to yield very tiny properties. The closest property to this location is probably 1229 York in the Mission for 899K and boy is it hideous.
I’ve seen these units before. The construction quality is not great but they’re the closest thing to owing a single family house. I don’t think the price is that far off. Whether you like it or not, there are tons of people who would love to live across the street from Duboce Park (dog poop and needles) and be able to walk to numerous restaurants, the Muni Metro, etc. I doubt very much that people looking in this area would even consider living in the Sunset, Excelsior, etc.
you wrote ” syringe filled park.” any link or do you care to elaborate?
Paco, I live here> I have seen them.
S
And name me a public park in SF that doesn’t have syringes.
Do syringes show up in Duboce Park? I’m sure they do (and I’m sure they do in Marina Green or any other SF park, as 94114 notes). But I’ve been bringing my kids to the Duboce lawn and playground about twice a week for seven years and I have never seen a syringe there (even with the needle exchange just a couple blocks away). I’m sure there have been some on the ground during those many years, but this is an absolute non-issue.
Dog poop? A different story. But it is a dog park! And there are inconsiderate people who don’t clean up after their dogs walking on every street in this city.
Folks, don’t get so defensive about Spencer’s remarks on parks, poop, and needles. He doesn’t like parks (Esprit, Duboce). Or drunk people. (Folsom, Presidio, Dogpatch) From the short time I’ve been reading threads on this site I’ve noticed this about him. But don’t argue with Spencer about parks. He’s got a keen eye for the negative.
Funny story about poop: Saw a smear dog poo on the sidewalk on Polk St in Russian Hill. Whoever stepped in it came back and taped a piece of paper next to the smear that said “To the person who didn’t pick up after their dog: F You!!” and he/she left two pennies on the paper.
I have been very happy with the Mission Bay park thus far. I don’t have to hover over my two-year-old in case he reaches for the ground (unlike South Park). They even supply free bags for dog poop. The only downside is that the children’s park is not built yet.
Going back to the condos: I have to agree with 94114, the price doesn’t seem to be off, so I’ll actually stop by and take a look. They’re having a “Twilight Tour” this Thursday, from 5 till 6:30pm. I for one LOVE the location, and would pay a premium for being across from the Park, a couple blocks from 5 Muni train lines, and walking distance to the Castro, Lower Haight, Upper Haight & Hayes Valley. and yes, I do rent in the neighborhood.
“Paco, I live here> I have seen them.
S”
Spencer, you’ve written that you live in Pac Heights. How often are you looking for needles in Duboce Park?
not that I have never seen a needle around SF… but the story is so over done and the apocryphal stories of being stuck seem unlikely. Has this ever been documented?
Well, I sure as heck wouldn’t pay $750k for something this small, but it seems sometimes like that’s just the way things are. Where do all these crazy buyers come from?
And Spencer, you must rent all over the city. I remember you saying you live in Pac Heights, too. I just don’t understand why you continually grace this site with your broken record comments. There’s a time and place for quality of life arguments, but it amazes me that anyone can come across so poorly in text alone; just cut it out already.
There’s a number of small 2BD/1BTH (less than 1000 square feet) homes in Midtown Terrace or Glen Park on the market that I think are way better value than this place. (You can actually build out additional space which I don’t think you can do with this townhouse.) But if you want to be near Duboce Park you can’t get any closer…
And name me a public park in SF that doesn’t have syringes.
Upper Noe Rec Center
Douglass Playground
Noe Courts
Christopher Playground
Holly Park
Juri Commons
La Parque De Los Ninos
Walter Haas Park
There are eight within walking distance of my houes and I haven’t even started to break a sweat.
Is it just my math? With a five percent commission to the seller’s realtor, this nets 740K. Where’s the appreciation?
Rocco, your math is right. This was a money loser for the owner even in out-of-pocket terms. Use any of the rent vs. own calculators, and the current owner took a big financial loss compared to renting for the past 15 months.
It will be a money loser for someone who buys at this still-bubble price too, both in absolute terms and as compared to renting.
Rocco, that is the difference between profit and appreciation. Appreciation means the price of the property went up, it does not speak to if anyone made any money (other then the agents, the city, the lenders, the title company, etc).
If I ever decided to move from my nearby, widely under-priced apartment (one of the buildings on the bottom right in the photo), I’d be shopping for a place like 1778 Page listed at $695k – more space & better potential, but a worse neighborhood. At the low end you always have to sacrifice something substantial (parking, space, neighborhood) so some of us just keep renting.
but the story is so over done and the apocryphal stories of being stuck seem unlikely. Has this ever been documented?
I’d rate it as UNCOMMON but it does happen. I used to see this a few times a year up at UCSF. I saw it a little more often at SFGH before gentrification of Potrero/Mission, but even then it was rare.
in general it was not “regular people” who got stuck accidentally though… it was usually homeless people or similar. (they were sleeping, rolled over and got stuck as example) I only saw a kid get stuck once.
It’s a PITA for people, because they have to get screened for Hepatitis and HIV and then rescreened over months… so it’s months of not knowing.
sfgirl, I found it almost funny but sad when you mention the bottom end and its almost $700K. We live in a pretty expensive City.
sfgirrrl,
i’m curious why you think lower haight/duboce park is a better hood than the upper haight?
Nothing to add really but to say that “Panic in Needle Park” is coming up fast on my Netflix queue. I was going to push it back a bit but this thread has changed my mind.
But I believe that movie is set in NYC.
I’ve lived right on Haight St (between Masonic/Central) and right on Steiner St(between (Duboce/Hermann). I prefer Duboce Triangle: more tree lined streets; better Muni access (6 streetcar choices vs. just 1); fewer panhandlers/street kids/Japanese tourists; slightly sunnier, less foggy weather; more practical shopping for me (supermarkets/hardware stores vs. skateboard /overpriced shoe stores); and walking distance to Mission, Castro, Haight, Hayes Valley.
To each his own…
Rillion- sorry, but the property has not appreciated. Only the asking price has.
Real estate is worth what someone pays for it. And sellers seem to have forgotten that “asking” prices are just that.
Rocco,
I never said it had appreciated. The original post mentioned that IF it sold at its new asking price it would represent annual appreciation of 3%. I did not feel the need to repeat that we were discussing the hypothetical case of if it sold at the new price since that was clearly spelled out in original post. Apparently I was wrong…
Paco, to answer your question from yesterday, take a look at 136 Ord. A little SFR about 12 blocks away (in a nicer area, most would say) for $875k. While it is not perfect, it is a nice little (not tiny) house that could actually house a family and would be a far superior buy over this place IMHO.
The Ord st. property sits on a 28 X 136 foot lot and is priced to encourage overbids. We’ll see. If it sells for under 900K I will be very surprised.
ok trip,
you wrote “But there are dozens of bigger, nicer SFRs all over town for under $900k now ”
at least you did find one that was close. but i agree with fluj that this house is pricing for overbid.
Fluj,
Slightly different topic. Do you think this could be the beginning of a slowdown in District 5, at least on the upper end? There’s 23 properties on the market for more than 2 million. Has there ever been anything quite like that before?
Sheesh, paco all I did was answer your question about the closest one of those dozens of houses all over town because you said Redfin wouldn’t load on your mac. I wasn’t attempting to list every one of the places, just to answer your specific question.
sorry trip,
i did not realize there was more than one sfr under $900k that was anywhere near duboce park. i guess i just have not seen all those others you were referring to.
I don’t know, 94114, maybe. District 5 is pretty big and pretty diverse. Some of its neighborhoods don’t have a ton in common, in my book. You’ve got folks who will only buy in Noe or Dolores for “the weather” versus folks who want to be near GG Park, for one thing. I think it’s more than 23 isn’t it? Of them how many are really stale, like seven? Of those, which have truly speculative pricing? Certainly Miguel and Mountain Spring both do, off the top of my head.
I’d look at how many properties from that list are asking for more than 850 a foot. Seriously. From what I’ve seen for the better parts of District 5, (E,K,C) that’s a metric that gives people pause.
Fluj, I guess my point was there’s an awful lot of Dwell houses, especially in Noe Valley. A while back, there’d be one or two at a time and they’d be snapped up immediately. It looks like there may be a glut of them now.
Which ones are Dwell-ish to you?
the Lower haight is a much better place to live than the upper haight.
The commercial strip in the upper haight is attracts a weird druggie, “is the the haight ashbury?” vibe, and is not very neighborhoody.
The lower haight is not in the fog and has better weather.
We have a streetcars, they have buslines.
duboce park kicks the panhandle parks butt.
Lots of good coffee, and places with sidewalk seating, i.e. Cafe du Soleil, etc.
Lots of the lower haight is flat and walkable.
You can switch hair salons every month and still find one you can walk to.
We have several blocks that dead end into the park, creating quieter traffic.
Alamo Square park a the top o the hill also cuts done on cross town traffic.
We have good bike lanes. Last week, in one hour, I counted 300 bycyclist rolling by.
The cool stuff on Divisadero, Star pizza Nopa is also withing woalking distance.
That fabulous dog, Pokemon for Mayor, lives there!
Fluj,
422 Valley, 931 Elizabeth, 3373 22nd, 3816 22nd, 1430 Duncan, 4419 19th, and 4226 25th would all qualify as Dwellish to me.
Kathleen forgot the best aspect of the lower Haight : Toronado. That little dive bar is the beer mecca for the whole western USA if not the entire continent.
Toronado, how I miss thee…. /cry. I wish I could have my baby shower at Toronado. Now that would be great atmosphere.
I love lots of lower haight/duboce triangle/alamo square, but there are parts towards Page/Haight and Webster/Fillmore that aren’t so great.
422 Valley — 894 a foot
931 Elizabeth — Unless it is over 3000 feet (and the tax records say 902 so it would have to have been more than tripled, it is over 850 a foot)
3373 23rd st — Over $2M for Valencia Corridor?
3816 22nd — the firehouse. Speculative pricing at 1038 a foot for Noe.
1430 Duncan — not in the MLS?
4419 19th — ~875 a foot, I think? This one will sell before too much longer if I were to guess. The pricing is not out of whack.
4226 25th — 962 a foot
I don’t think it’s a backlash against Dwell at all, 94114. I think it’s a backlash against 900 and 900+ a foot pricing.
Thanks Fluj. I’ve just never seen so many upper end houses for sale in this nabe at the same time before.
396 is back on at $612,900. Bubble continues to deflate (slowly).
Great neighborhood. Price is still silly for a tiny, but cute, place like this.
“4419 19th — ~875 a foot, I think? This one will sell before too much longer if I were to guess. The pricing is not out of whack. ”
Ahh, the good old days when realtors could tell us prices “weren’t out of whack”.
According to public records, 4419 19th never sold.
And now 396, sold for $749K in March of 2007 is listed for $612K. And the realtors have deserted like rats on a sinking ship.
…and 388 Hermann is in escrow after being listed for a little over three weeks at $599K.
$749: the good old days. $599, todays reality.