CFAH

165 Collingwood
If you’ve been wondering what’s been built inside, now’s your chance to see. Three units total with a “twilight wine & sneak preview” of the penthouse tonight (10/10) from four to six.
∙ Listing: 165 Collingwood (2/3) – $1,749,000 [MLS]

Comments from Plugged-In Readers

  1. Posted by sf

    Hello world Here is me in side my house!

  2. Posted by curmudgeon

    I’ve been watching this one, and I have to say I find the knife edge glass prow incredibly cheesy and aggressive looking from the street. It will be interesting to see from the inside.

  3. Posted by CameronRex

    Fabulous.

  4. Posted by ex SF-er

    Overall it’s nice even though I’m not much into modern. Interestingly I thought I’d like the knife edge window more than I actually did.
    but it’s a cool place. The only thing I don’t like is the fireplace that looks like a microwave oven. I’m not huge on floating fireplaces… but that could be torn out and replaced easily. the kitchens and baths are serviceable (kitchens very similar to one Rincon actually)
    but otherwise looks like a great place to live especially if you like a busy neighborhood.

  5. Posted by Foolio

    The sharp glass prow is also really bad feng shui.

  6. Posted by jlasf

    Always love glass corners. I know that Wright used them extensively. But does anyone know if he invented them?

  7. Posted by midcentfan

    Wouldn’t it be bad feng shui only if it were pointing inward?

  8. Posted by Foolio

    @mcfan: Spoken like a true American! 😉
    Yes, bad for the occupant if pointed inwards, bad for the place across the street if pointed outwards…looks like 165 Diamond may be the (un)lucky winner…

  9. Posted by NoeValleyJim

    Look, another place that uses those crappy Caeserstone countertops 🙂

  10. Posted by Binnings Team

    “Wouldn’t it be bad feng shui only if it were pointing inward?”
    Pwhahaha, good one.
    It’s definitely a different flavor from most of the housing stock around there. Solid location, of course. Looking forward to seeing these interiors in person so I can make a better judgment call. Based on the photos, I am liking this place.

  11. Posted by diemos

    The top floor unit is actually a split level. One bedroom down a half-floor from the main room, one a half-floor up. Good sized private roof deck. Nice views from both bedrooms.

  12. Posted by Ryan

    I’ve been watching construction on this place and have to say the place looks nice. not everyones cup of tea but it works, and a great location. If you like being in the center of the bustle.
    I am so torn. Either the units will have trouble selling or will sell right away at asking. I have a feeling its going to be one extreme or another.
    I’m surprised to see that the PH has any views. I could understand rooftop views, but the lower two units will have a nice view of the street and school across the way. Thats about it.
    Can’t wait to see how these do.

  13. Posted by tipster

    Ryan,
    Maybe you could buy one of these with a 10% jumbo loan. Rates are up about a full percentage point in a month!
    https://www.wellsfargo.com/mortgage/rates/
    Cough up $385K for the down (at least) plus fees, and pay a low, low, 12,000 per month in interest. Take your 6K tax deduction, add 1750 per month in property taxes, another $1000 for HOA/insurance and you are looking at $8750 per month after taxes, not including the opportunity cost of the $375K.
    Don’t have $375K down payment or the $500K per year qualifying income? No problem. You can rent a 3000 square foot Russian Hill SFR (and keep the all but the deposit from the $375K) for LESS MONEY and you won’t lose your downpayment in an alt-a meltdown.
    http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/873964234.html

  14. Posted by tipster

    ^^Slight error in my calcs: the mortgage exceeds $1M and is therefore not tax deductible. In that case, assume the property tax is fully deductible, and so add about $5K to the $8750 per month: $13,750 per month, after taxes. For a two bedroom condo. Sign me up!

  15. Posted by Trip

    Tipster, your point about the ridiculously obvious result of the rent vs. own analysis is valid. However, mortgages in excess of $1 million are still deductible, but only up to $1 million. It should also be noted that, as Satchel once pointed out with some detailed calculations, the actual reduction in taxes from the mortgage interest deduction is substantially lower than commonly believed — it would be far less than the $6000/mo you built in to your numbers (making the rent side of the rent vs. own analysis even stronger).
    I doubt these places will go for anything close to asking. But they are very nice, and I love this neighborhood.

  16. Posted by Morgan

    Not to sound lazy Trip, but do you remember what thread Satchel posted his calculations on? I would be very interested in reading this.

  17. Posted by NoeValleyJim

    Everyone’s tax situation is different and the calculations can get very complex, especially if you have to consider things like AMT, so there is no “one-size-fits-all” answer. One thing that is clear is that you cannot just multiply your marginal tax rate by your mortgage, this will tend to overstate your deduction. You need to actually get out the tax tables, or use TurboTax or call your accountant.

  18. Posted by Ghost of JBR

    Jumbo 30-year mortgages are at 10% interest rates, winter is coming, inventories are up and yet, STILL, houses and condos are routinely selling for millions in the “real” SF.
    If prices hold up in the face of astronomical interest rates, a severe (impending) recession, downpayments that amount to real money AND more stringent income requirements for borrowers (3:1 or whatever)… then there truly is NO LIMIT to how high San Francisco prices can go.

  19. Posted by diemos

    “then there truly is NO LIMIT to how high San Francisco prices can go.”
    Yup. I would recommend that you buy now before you are priced out forever.
    BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

  20. Posted by Trip

    Morgan, I can’t find the thread I had in mind (this issue is discussed a lot here). But NoeValleyJim has it right in a nutshell — you have to actually run your taxes under both scenarios to get a real picture of the tax savings from mortgage interest. The AMT figures into it. Also, the state tax interest deduction lowers state taxes, but this in turn results in a lower federal deduction for state taxes. So as NVJ states, you can’t just take interest * marginal rate = deduction — that will overstate it.
    On one of Ghost of JBR’s points, inventory is really skyrocketing in SF as sales plummet. Redfin shows more than 2000 units on the market (871 SFRs, 1149 condos [which I think also includes TICs]): http://www.redfin.com/city/17151/CA/San-Francisco. I agree with him that if prices were to hold up in the face of all these pressures, then I guess we can just consider the laws of economics repealed in SF — I wouldn’t bet on it; we already tried that on a larger scale and look at the worldwide collapse that resulted.

  21. Posted by tipster

    Trip, two points:
    1. Sonofagun, you’re right. A mortgage broker had told me that you had to have a mortgage amount not exceeding $1M, but that was incorrect. So about 2/3 of the loan is deductible.
    2. Satchel was right, and everyone forgets that the deductions are limited when your income exceeds a certain limit, but a good rule of thumb that takes into account the issues he raised and the limits on deductions is to assume the mortgage interest up to $1mil is deductible, but then assume the property tax is not deductible at all. That usually gets you to the same place, when, in fact, the property tax is fully deductible. At least it always worked out that way for me.
    So we have a $12,000 loan plus 1750 in property taxes, with about a $4K deduction, plus $1K in HOA and insurance, to hit $10,750 per month after taxes. That gets you a rental at the Ritz Carlton with all of their amenities, with $3,750 per month left over! So save $40K per year, keep the downpayment in your pocket, take no risk on alt a causing you to lose money, give up your maintenance worries, and live at the Ritz.
    http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/874404238.html
    It’s a nice condo, but sheesh, it isn’t THAT nice,

  22. Posted by Tax Expert

    Satchel’s conceptual ideas about effectve versus marginal tax deductibility is here:
    https://socketsite.com/archives/2008/08/comment_of_the_week_so_far_an_all_too_common_mispercept.html
    That thread refers back to some calculations made in an earlier thread:
    https://socketsite.com/archives/2008/08/san_francisco_affordability_is_the_new_reality_already.html
    (starting with the 10:09 am post)
    Much of that discussion was about lower priced houses, where AMT and the $1M deductibility limitation on mortgage size wouldn’t really come in to play. AMT is an issue of course for expensive properties and/or high income earners (largely because of nondeductibility of property tax under the AMT regime), but is often misunderstood and overstated. AMT in almost all scenarios makes real estate even less desirable from a tax point of view, at least for recent purchases where the ratio of prop tax to interest deduction is lower than for longstanding holdings.

  23. Posted by bgelldawg

    They tore down a very nice old Victorian to build this montser that does not fit with the rest of the block. I hope they choke on it.
    I would not call this “one of the best blocks in the Castro” unless you like noise during the day from the school and playground, more noise at night from the bars, and still more noise after the bars close from the people who cruise around the park.
    It’s actually a pretty creepy block at night.

  24. Posted by wealthy from sf real estate

    I find it so amusing the lengths you all go to in trying to rationalize staying out of real estate investing. If you’d spend some time trying to figure out how to make it work for you, maybe you could quit your day job like I did a couple years ago – its a state of mind people.

  25. Posted by dog daddy

    other challenge is the dog park across the street. i take my small, non-barking dogs there and have to deal with the inconsiderate dog parents who don’t do anything about their loud barking dogs. it bounces off all the houses surrounding the dog park. this location of the units would be good for those who don’t mind that.

  26. Posted by andanotherthing

    The 24 supermarket at the corner is not a state of mind, nor is the noise from delivery trucks backing up to the store at all hours of the day and night.
    Almost any other block in the Castro would be more desireable than this one.

  27. Posted by antiflip

    “If you’d spend some time trying to figure out how to make it work for you, maybe you could quit your day job like I did a couple years ago”.
    ….uh…you may want to dust off that resume for I would not be surprised if you are about to join the ranks of “day job” people.

  28. Posted by Dan

    The Delano market is on the corner with 18th Street, and this home is near 19th Street, so I doubt one would hear delivery trucks backing into the store.

  29. Posted by wealthy from sf real estate

    antiflip:
    The ongoing cynicism here ceases to amaze me. True, many people misused the exotic loans that were so easy to get over the past 6-10 years.
    But nobody wants to talk on this site about the clever investors out there who used those loans to acquire multiple homes, condo convert, buy/renovate/sell and ultimately refi multiple properties to more stable long term loans with low LTV’s for long term holding.
    This site reminds me of the “bitchers” who used to hang around the water cooler where I used to “work” everyday, wallowing happily together in their self-made misery.
    So no, I won’t be “dusting off that resume” nor will I be joining your perpetual water cooler bitchfest with you “day job” people, as you put it.

  30. Posted by antiflip

    Don’t worry “wealthy”, I bought back in 1991 in 94123 when you still needed 20% down, and own my home free and clear. I come from that strange group of people over 40 who bought a home as a place to live in, raise a family, and pay off so that there would be no payments during later years.
    I am not bitter, but am surprised you are so proud of how many loans you have. I am so “crazy” now that my home is paid off, that I have no debt at all, and even buy our cars with cash. I guess I am “behind the times.”

  31. Posted by wealthy from sf real estate

    Why am I not too surprised you over personalized and missed my point…..but as long as you’ve taken us here….would you rather own one house free and clear or five with loans between 30 and 40 % LTV….think about it.
    I posted earlier to point out this is an amazing real estate market here in this city despite all the “Chicken Little” squawking on this site – not to challenge or attack anyone personally – so chill

  32. Posted by deshard

    I love contemporary homes, but this one just doesn’t really show any creativity or imagination. It looks like it could be any upscale condo in SOMA.

  33. Posted by Ryan

    Tipster,
    Thanks but no thanks. Its nice but not anywhere near that nice. It would have to be a cash only deal after calculating those numbers!

  34. Posted by curmudgeon

    I took a look at this home this weekend. The views are great, both of Twin Peaks from the Living Room, and of downtown and the East Bay from the bedrooms. The roof deck was a real bonus, particular since this location is somewhat protected, so you’d probably actually use it. the bedroom up and bedroom down in the penthouse is also great.
    I continue to hate the knife edge glass window, particularly more so close up because it’s nearly impossible to do it perfectly…you can’t help but notice the glue line.
    Some have mentioned that this block is not ideal. It’s definitely got its plusses and minuses. The great part is that you are steps from everything..shopping, transit, bars, restaurants. That’s also the bad thing if you want absolutely hushed and quiet. You would have to deal a bit with the 2 AM bar close traffic (and maybe some late night action around Collingwood Park, but this is much diminished from the past). I really don’t think you’d have any noise issues from the supermarket, only the occasional annoyance of double parked delivery trucks. There is a playground across the street, as well as a dog park. Finally, on the bedroom side you look out towards Castro Street, and there is a restaurant with an outdoor patio that is popular on weekend mornings. So, for all of these reasons you will get the ocassional barking dog, screaming child,or beligerent drunk…but to some people this is the music of the city. You wouldn’t want to buy here if you weren’t prepared to put up with it.
    Oh, one last comment. Not an issue in the top floor, but the electrical services come into the building RIGHT in front of that dramatic window on the 2nd floor. Clearly an issue where the architectural rendering and the as built’s change. It looks AWFUL. This condition could only be fixed if the utilities were undergrounded.

  35. Posted by curmudgeon

    A couple of other comments..
    i just noticed the exterior elevation pic doesn’t show the overhead wires coming in to the building. Either it’s photoshopped out, or maybe they disappear in that night time shot. They sure don’t during the day.
    Also…I was surprised that there were standpipes (is that the right word?)for the fire dept on each floor of the entryway, and prominent (and ugly) illumninated exit signs as well. Has there been a change in the building code, because I don’t recall seeing this in other small condo buildings. It seems like unfortunate overkill to me. Any of the architects on here know?

  36. Posted by anon

    You can tell the wires were photoshopped out because the roof line of the building next to the 2nd floor is super wavy and there is distortion in the sky. So much for listing honesty.

  37. Posted by Trip

    All three of these units were just reduced — each by $100k.
    Maybe serve better wine?

  38. Posted by Trip

    Just reduced another $50,000 each. Drop it another $300,000 per unit and they might actually get a sale. Wait a year and they’ll need to drop it twice that.

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