Originally expected to hit the market early last month, seven (7) of the 39 condos that comprise Chelsea Park will be “released” to the public tomorrow afternoon (1/27) with a “Sneek Peek” from 1-5pm. (And yes, we have a feeling they meant “sneak” rather than the city in the northern Netherlands.)
Three of the units are now listed on the MLS (with prices ranging from $749,000 to $1,269,000 in this release). And don’t read too much into the lack of photography (other than with respect to the delayed opening), “the photographer is coming today.”
∙ Listing: 29 Oakwood Street #16 (3/2.5) – $1,269,000 [MLS]
∙ Listing: 29 Oakwood Street #17 (2/2) – $899,000 [MLS]
∙ Listing: 29 Oakwood Street #18 (1/1) – $749,000 [MLS]
∙ San Francisco’s Chelsea Park Condominiums Coming Soon [SocketSite]
900K for a 2bdroom in the mission? aren’t we in a reccession and a falling housing market? Who are the people out there who are still willing to pay this price for a small condo in an “forever up and coming” neighborhoodin a falling market? Honestely, i really wan t know the demographic.
Spencer, you are obviously not part of the demographic. Don’t worry about it. I think these look pretty nice and I plan on checking them out.
i clearly am not part of the demographic, bu thanks for the reassurance.
i am 33, educated, have 20% to put down, make 200K and am waiting for a nce 2bdroom in a good neighborhood that deflates down to the proper price point that is historically reasonable in terms of P/R.
am not worried about it, but would love to understand who the people are that continue to pay bubble prices in a deflating market. are they so wealthy that prices just matter, or are they people who are overextending themselves and still under the spell that housing will aways apreciate. I jsut dont understand who would be buying that doesnt fit into one of those categories.
actually one mre ctegory. people who have been relocatd by a company that provides housing assistance. I ahve a friend who was give 100K free for downpayment and an interest free mortgage loan to move here. he did buy, but even with the free money he was afraid that he wold lose it in depreciation. however, i can understad this situation.
Count me in on not paying these prices to live in the Mission … even though I have not seen the place. I’d rather pay the same price to live in SoMa/South Beach.
Yeah, count me in Spence’s demo, but out of these too. No thanks.
How to make a small place desirable? With window mullions! Great idea for a human scale condo cluster, but thoroughly insipid execution.
Even worse than the high prices for these condos are the 1900s architecture and 1950s building techniques. Its criminal to waste so much energy, materials and money building something so shoddily. Does anyone really want to live in a new stick-framed victorian with small windows, a boring layout and a useless 2nd bedroom? It’s a shame that modern thinking and technology have improved our lifestyles over the past century in so many aspects except housing. Come on San Francisco, build some green modern homes!
I am surprised by all the people denigrating this as being “in the Mission”, as in fact the area is “Mission Dolores”, and this is a great location. The street is quite and the area safe, but Dolores Park is a block away; all of the bars, restaurants, night spots along Valencia street are nearby. Both BART and Muni are easy to get to etc. IMHO, this is an excellent location.
Whether the units are well-designed and attractive is a matter of opinion. They seem fine to me; though not exceptional.
It will be interesting to see if they can sell at these prices — certainly a year ago they would have been snapped right up.
I like the location, although super safe is not what I would call it considering my good friend lives on liberty and 19th and has had her car broken into 3 times in 4 months. She finally sold it rather than repair it.
That said, if a garaged parking space is provided, this is a pretty great location for some folks. Has anyone seen the units? I would like to go by but am out of town. What is the alley like? Safe? Dirty? Would love to hear thoughts of people who have seen them in person.
Potential Buyer, there is no Liberty and 19th…they are parallel. But point taken.
This was once the Mission, but now in realtor speak is Mission Dolores (The “Mission” like the “Western Addition” is ever shrinking…). I feel like an old timer, but not so very long ago there was rampant drive up drug dealing at 19th and Dolores (mostly just weed), and the area was considered quite dangerous. However, in the past 10 years, this area has become one of the hottest in town, with great restaurants and nightlife along Valencia and 18th.
If I were in the market, I would much rather look here than somewhere relatively soul-less, but that’s me. No comment on prices…the market will reveal all…
I meant liberty and dolores. Nice catch.
Spencer, when mortgage rates return to “historical norms” the Price/Rent ratio you speak of will return. Cost of owning vs. cost of renting. If my money is cheap – I can pay more in purchase price. Don’t think raising the conforming loan limit will help you either, because it will be cheaper money for everyone – so they can bid more…. That said some locals will suffer more than others in a down market. I for one, think this is a good location.
“Who are the people out there who are still willing to pay this price for a small condo . . . ?”
I guess there are some somewhere around here, but honestly these prices are out there! The 1BR is large, but for anywhere near that price point you’d have to throw in an extra half-bath to even be in the ballpark, before the credit crunch — much less in this market. And what’s this, they aren’t even prepared to provide the washer/dryer — just hookups! Get a clue it’s not 2005!
I hope there aren’t too many people waiting for a “price point that is historically reasonable in terms of P/R” because they run the risk of remaining in the “bitter renter” class, but my first thought when seeing pricing like this is that I wish that everyone would stay away in droves until it falls more in line with the competition and current market conditions.
For most new developments, asking price does not mean selling price. I know several people and have many friends who have written offers much below asking price on various new developments around the city and have in turn gotten some great deals. You gotta get in the game if you want to play, people. Try it.
I wonder what the square footage/price per square foot is?
too much for a place in the mission…
It is stil the mission, no matter how you remodel or build. You can’t change location, and even the people who live around you is really hard to change (especially here in SF).
If you enjoy the mission (I love the bars and restaurants) and am able to deal with the probs (crime, low income demographic, dirty, just generally a 3rd class neighborhood) then it is not a bad buy if the price were a bit lower.
“I wonder what the square footage/price per square foot is?”
If plans are to scale and entry doors are 36″, 1br would be around 950sqft and the 2br around 1200. $750-$800/sqft?
Do the bedrooms face on to the walkway? (It sure looks like it) Let’s just hope your neighbors don’t like to engage in late night entertaining as you will get little sleep. I find all the floorplans rather strange. Why not have the entry directly from the walkway-courtyard instead of going down the dark tunnels? I won’t even go into the strange “Ye Olde English” atmosphere and names which have nothing to do with the Mission. There was an opportunity here, but the result is rather strange.
Valid points, Anonconfused, but no shared bedroom walls is a plus, and, with the corridor being shared, you don’t have much wasted hallway space inside the units, thereby sharing what would otherwise have to be provided twice.
PB: I am surprised to hear that your friend has problems with auto break ins. I live at almost exactly the same location and park on the street without any problem (and I don’t see any glass on the sidewalk when I jog in the morning). Your friend may just have bad luck (or I may just have good luck). Anyway, I and lots of other people walk around the neighborhood at night without any worries (but 4 blocks east you probably wouldn’t do that).
maybe its just my pet peeve again but what’s up w/brokers not listing the sq.footage? its insulting, no? especially on brand new construction.
Just came back from the ‘sneak peak’, honestly these are the most well built multi-unit places I have seen in a long time.
The style isn’t mine ideal (my preference is modern) but the attention to detail in the construction is well beyond anything I have seen.
Also the units are much larger than I have seen in the price range. You could actually get more than just a bed in the bedrooms — and the closet doors are real – not the fake half doors (so they can open when a bed is in the room).
Check ’em out, you might be surprised. Also regarding the neighborhood? Walk to Delfina, Tartine, Maverick, and BiRite? I get hit up by bums more often in the financial district than this neighborhood. To each his/her own!
p.s.
more parking spaces that units! whooohooo!
Just back as well and not nearly as enthusiastic as Pamela but agree that the location is great.
The three bedroom is actually a two bedroom with den and all the master bedrooms face each other across a little light court. Carpet in the master bedroom felt industrial and I would have preferred a walk-in closet. Not a lot of other storage space.
Bathroom finishes were nice but no storage, lots of wasted space and those 3/4 length tubs. M8 “green” cabinets in the kitchen were nice a nice surprise as were the outlets inside the cabinets.
Parking is leased and all but one space in stackers (although the good kind where you don’t have to move the car below).
They said 60-90 days for occupancy of this phase and “at least a few months” to finish up the courtyard and all the other units. Felt like they were being rushed to market IMHO.
We stopped by today as well – it was an absolute madhouse. I would like to go back and look again when there aren’t so many people there. It was too much to try and focus on the units when we were there. I loved the front door and garage door, however.
Location is fantastic – absolutely.
I heartily agree with those who love the location. I lived about a block away for 11 years from 1991 to 2002. It was a great neighborhood, which only got better over time. In the early 90’s, there was a lot of the drug dealing and crime around Dolores park, but this was really cleaned up by 2000.
I’d have no hesitation moving back to this neighborhood.
Love the location, hate the floorplans.
Miraculously, the least desirable unit (1 bedroom, lower floor) had the best layout and a bedroom that’s actually livable. The 2 bedroom units had Master bedrooms on the order of 10 ft by 10 ft. Not to mention, as stated above, that the Master bedrooms face one another with the distance between sliding glass doors being ~12 feet.. you’d basically need to have the curtains down the vast majority of the time. Not fun.
Other +/-:
there are ‘lifts’ in the garage, I wonder how loud it will be for the units above the spaces with lifts
lots of green space
some units with fireplaces
some units master windows ‘face’ each other – I imagine they will plant bamboo or something to screen
good light in every unit we saw
green cabinets
parking is leased on an annual basis (park shark in the future?)
never enough closet space
don’t know about extra storage
some units did have an odd little room in the middle which did not have a closet – would work for an office, tv room, or puppy room (unless they have large wardrobes)
I think it was a ‘madhouse’ (and it was!) as there is not a lot of new construction in the area. It is also new construction that is much more of a human scale (less habitrail-ish) than the large developments.
That being said, my Hubby said he would rather give Soma Grand 1.25 for their 2/2 view unit that purchase the 2/2 at Chelsea…we will see.
Back to Chelsea Park:
Location is great, yes, it’s the Mission but the better part of the Mission aka Mission Dolores. Close to transportation, close to Dolores Park, close to Delfina/Tartine (but if you buy here, probably you’ll do ramen more often, if you have more than enough money, you probably won’t buy here).
Building quality is good. Hardwood floor, etc. is good. Bertazzoni range is a bit over the top (it is not a $2 million condo).
Floorplan is BAD (2 kiddie sized bdrms, incl. the master bdrm). Also the privacy issue between bdrooms inside the unit and with the neighbors across (will see a lot of “ugly naked guy” across the unit if curtain is open).
Living area is GREAT. Appliances, sinks, etc. are MIXED (what’s up with the 2 separate ready-made sinks without counter in some of the bathroom?). Some baths have the “normal” over/double-sized sinks but most are not.
And last but not least ….. anyone here actually knows that parking space is NOT deeded? And with elevator-style too? What if you’re in a rush to go for a meeting and the elevator got stuck? who would you sue?
Additional $100 over the HOA of $350-ish for the 2.5/2. Also, saw how low the parking space clearance is? Doubt it can fit mid to larger sized SUVs. Too many “empty spaces” between buildings – probably for courtyard – that could have been used for your sane parking spaces.
Bottom line is that I would not pay $900k for a 2/2 without a deeded parking. With a deeded parking (if with the elevator), I’d have grudgingly paid, with a deeded parking (no elevator parking), I’d have paid $950k.
Too bad …. this could have been a much better project, so much potential lack in execution, IMHO.
If you’re looking for the statistical debate between fluj and Trip: If You Can’t Beat Them…Give Them A Post Of Their Own. And now back to Chelsea Park in specific.
Wow, such hatred for the Mission. Maybe you’ll have to wait until the next big one hits and there’s total destruction in the MARINA for you to buy a 2 bedroom for $100k. Good luck! By the way, I bought a 3 bed/3 bath condo in THE MISSION which is not Mission Dolores…where Chelsa Park is located, for $835k. I’ve enjoyed the appreciation over the past 2 years. No need to sell, but baby I’ll cash in…in the MISSION!
Whatever you want to call this neighborhood (baja Liberty Hill?) its problem is that it is too much like the Marinia, not that it’s somehow different. If you went to the open house (aka “madhouse”) and jostled elbows with all the pushy young professional people you would have experienced the demographic first hand.
Getting back to spencers’ original question: who is going to pay? Those for whom cash is not a question (and desire a Dolores Park neighborhood); those for whom emotional attachment to ownership is not a question (and economic forecasts can be ignored); and those for whom relocation assistance appears as a great opportunity (but remain ignorant of the effects of California’s eminent domain proposition).
Thread hijack…but what about the eminent domain proposition is pg refering to? Getting rid of rent control? I’m confused, but not that informed.
We should get back to talking about Chelsea Park, but just to answer the question.
There is an upcoming ballot proposition to restrict eminent domain, which will also totally eliminate rent control on units once they are vacated. (The next tenants of the unit would not have rent control.) Current tenants would have even more incentive to remain in their units, so decontrol would happen slowly.
Apparently, another eminent domain proposition without the elimination of rent control will also be on the ballot. I think odds are against the voters ending rent control.
In any event, I see little relevance to Chelsea Park.
If these units sell at the current prices, how can you say they are overpriced, or at bubble prices? If they closed near these prices,I would say its due more to pent up demand for new construction in an area that is very attractive to a certain demographic. If there were tons of folks going through these units on the open house day and the units have generated this much interest, it will be interesting to see if that interest can translate into sales. Have any of the units closed yet (beyond the 5K down refundable deposit to hold a unit)?
I have lived in this area for 10 years and have seen prices rise substantially. We are currently in a national housing price correction. Be careful to assume that a national correction applies directly to all cities and neighborhoods. I have seen the Mission Dolores area grow in desirability over the past 10 years and if the number of people turning out to open houses in this area are any indication of current demand a correction in prices, if any, is likely to be minimal. Remember what your financial analysts tell u don’t try to predict the bottom or top of the market and weigh the advantages of historically low mortgage rates, again. One homeowners opinion.
I have no question that prices in this area will fall, as they will in the rest of SF. Its just a matter of how long it will take. For those with a 10 yr + view, it shouldn’t matter. But anyone looking to buy and hold for less than ten years, it is a losing proposition. My question is who are all these people lining up fo a losing proposition?
These units are overpriced even for a bubble market and the bubble is already beginning to deflate.
local residnet, you have lived in the area for 10 yrs and are duly biased. Sf has been in a housing bubble that started in the late 90s and grew out of proportion in 2003-2006.
july 2007 was the high point for SF. Somewhere around 2010 should be the bottom and I think 2010 prices will look not much different than those in 2002-2003.
Spencer,
I am one of those who considered lining up for a “loosing proposition.” The location is great for me, and I look at purchasing a home/condo as a lifestyle choice, not as an investment per se. Sure, I could save money renting right now, but quite frankly most rental units just aren’t that nice. If living in a nice home makes me happy, and in five years from now I can break even, then its a good decision for me.
That said, I toured these units finally. I can’t believe they are asking 1.2 million for those finishes. They look like they are from Target. And not even the nice stuff from Target.
I just finished touring these places. I think these prices are quite inflated for cookie cutter condos. Current inventory seems quite high right now and I think in order for these places to sell you have to have an edge and it can’t just be Dolores park.
I like the “green” comment above. I am very surprised that in a hip city like San Francisco we still don’t see more green projects going on. It’s the same ole’ over-priced luxury condo after another. What about grey water recycling, solar, geo thermal, compost gardens, bamboo, recycled Tech Block, etc. etc.
I do appreciate a nice place, but having a 4-6K mortgage payment seems a bit absurd.
Those of you who wish to think Dolores and 19th the same thing as Florida and 20th are free to do whatever you want. It’s a free blogosphere. Just do some of us a favor. Take a walk along 18th between Valencia and Dolores some time before you post about “This is outrageous for the Mission” again. Whether or not realtors invented the Mission Dolores neighborhood or not — and they did — is irrelevant. This neighborhood is its own thing now.
This price does seem way high. Mission Dolores is a nice neighborhood, but is it any nicer than, say, the North Panhandle? I saw an open house yesterday — http://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Francisco/1992-Hayes-St-94117/home/1643379 — a 1996-built south-facing 2/2 loft with a small private deck advertised at $819K — a better floor plan than the one above and 10% cheaper, in what I would regard as at least as nice a neighborhood. So this strikes me as just wrong.
the gourmet ghetto and dolores park are hotter than that part of NOPA. I agree, the condo you linked to above is better looking. Chelsea park condos aren’t selling because they are super cheap looking and the market is soft. and the townhouses have a bad layout.