1610 Sanchez
The list price for the “charming Victorian single family home” at 1610 Sanchez (“located on a quiet street in Noe Valley near shops, restaurants & transportation”) was reduced from $849,000 to $799,000 yesterday.
Once again, the property was purchased for $907,000 in May 2005 and a sale at asking would represent a 12 percent decline in value below its year 2005 comp setting price.
∙ Listing: 1610 Sanchez (2/1) 861 sqft – $849,000 [1610sanchez.com] [MLS]
A Bounty Of New Noe Valley Apples (And Summer Inventory) [SocketSite]

84 thoughts on “The Noe Valley Apple At 1610 Sanchez Drops, Just Not Into Our Cart”
  1. 12% under 2005 sounds about right for Noe. I’d bet it goes for the new asking, or a bit more. It’s a pretty tiny place, but nice enough and okay for a single person or a couple with no kids. The likelihood that it’ll take many years before you could get out without losing a substantial amount may be scaring away buyers who think there is even a chance they’d outgrow the place any time soon. (As I’ve noted before, I’d know about $5,000 off the price for having to remove the hot tub).
    But even with record low interest rates, you’re still talking far more than comparable rent at the reduced price. My bet is that three years from now $799k for this place will seem as absurd as $907k seems today.

  2. “The likelihood that it’ll take many years before you could get out without losing a substantial amount may be scaring away buyers who think there is even a chance they’d outgrow the place any time soon”
    This is why I’ve suggested recently that the “starter home” concept might be a little broken lately. The problem with the concept is a) that short holding times typically depend on undue (boomtime) appreciation to overcome transaction costs, and b) you can generally save a bigger down payment for your non-starter house while renting because owning costs of starter homes are still higher than renting costs of the equivalent. People are recognizing this more and more, which is why 2/1s have a smaller audience now than they did during the boom.

  3. Even as a 1/1, 1320 Church is nicer than this, is right on the J line, was also built in 1900, and last sold for $875K…in 2006.

  4. Yes, $/sf is high (>900) but 1/2 of the real value is the lot. Though it is probably on the small side: 1375 per PS or 55 feet deep if the width is the usual 25ft.
    Another plus: you can zoom out your garage (yes, a garage) to the 280 in a couple of minutes.

  5. How accurate is the sq footage? Doesn’t look like the “media room” and “bonus room” are included, understandable given the low ceiling heights. Those rooms have a cavelike feel which would suck as living areas but might be okay for hobby stuff (man-cave, craft studio, Netflix marathons, etc).
    All in all, looks like a decent alternative to a condo…for short people.

  6. Remodels like this, ones that don’t jive with how people really live, with what they need are why the price has to come way down – it’s something of a “fixer upper.” The really cheap and poorly arranged remodeling is only the beginning of many poor choices.
    The particle board in the kitchen and bathroom won’t last more than a couple of years. Formica countertops?! Why a single seat at the kitchen counter instead of storage? The high cost of running or removing that hideous hot tub should bring the price down even more. Plus, the house has to be wired for computer and cable.
    They took out the bathtub, angled the toilet and shower (who’s shaped like that?), put in a huge vanity and still, no place to store or hang towels or robes!
    They also cannibalized the dining room. Why not make the “extra” room a real bedroom with a closet and leave a dining room, you know a room for eating in because you use most of your money to pay the mortgage?
    The bedrooms are tiny, only big enough for a double bed plus an end table, no room for a dresser. If you need two bedrooms, either you have many guests or a child, but there’s nowhere to keep all the stuff that guests or children require. with money tight, places like these, that should be good deals, need to be more consideratly designed.

  7. The original loans were an $725.6k first and a $90.7k second (variable, of course). In 2006 there was either a refi or HELOC with Citibank. At a certain point, I would guess, walking away starts to look attractive.

  8. CM with the critical beatdown. Props!
    It’s kind of a shame (as a prospective buyer of a small house) that its presence in NV will guarantee that it can’t go below $600K, so the sellers have that going for them.

  9. You can rent a nice 2/1 place in a good nabe for $3000/month today. Assuming a 10 year horizon, a 2% annual rent increase and a 1% annual home value appreciation over that same ten years (a very generous assumption, IMHO), the NYT Rent/Buy calculator says the price at which this place beats renting (at year 10) is $599,000 (20% down with 4.5% mortgage rate).
    I predict another price drop… or two.
    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/business/buy-rent-calculator.html

  10. I looked at this property and read the disclosures: a large extent of the “improvements” were done without permits.
    From the deck in the back to new windows to the pergo flooring (which is a good quarter inch higher then the rest of the floors), this was done cheaply and badly. The downstairs rooms are both illegal and claustraphobic with very low ceilings. Add in the floor slants from the kitchen to bathroom, this probably could use some structural work too.
    As to the commenter above re: the kitchen. The countertops are not formica but a covered plywood, with the cabinetry being pressboard. Yellowed pressboard (10 years old per disclosure) at that.

  11. photography was done very well. it makes this place look much nicer than it evidently is. of course there are the obligatory 10-15 pictures of nearby “attractions” but at least there are 25+ pics of the home. well done to the RE agent, they’re at least earning their keep.
    one thing I’ve never understood about SF. People will pay nearly $1M for a place, and then put in super cheap vinyl windows and Pergo floors and other very cheap substitutes.
    Is it because they’re so strapped for cash after the purchase price that they can’t afford anything else?
    how much more could it have possibly cost to put in hardwood floors into this place?
    A quick nonscientific check on lumberliquidators.com shows that
    -Bella Hardwood Floors with a 50 year warranty are $2.99/sq ft with installation as low as $1.99/sq ft.
    -I found stained birch on super sale for as low as $1.69/sq ft.
    the cheapest birch laminate I found on super sale was $0.59/sq ft. presumably it could be put in by the owner for free.
    Let’s pretend the Kitchen is a massive 20ft x 20 ft (I highly doubt it the whole house is only 862 sq ft).
    400 sq ft x 0.59 = $236 for the laminate.
    (400 sq ft x 1.69) PLUS (400 sq ft x 1.99 install) = $1472 for the cheap hardwood
    (400 sq ft x 2.99) PLUS (400 sq ft x 1.99 install) = $1992 for the bellawood
    so these nearly million dollar home buyers couldn’t afford an extra $1-2k for hardwood floors?
    I get it with cheap vinyl windows… windows are expensive (I just spent a ton on them so I know). but hardwood vs laminate? in an $800k house? insane.

  12. “one thing I’ve never understood about SF. People will pay nearly $1M for a place, and then put in super cheap vinyl windows and Pergo floors and other very cheap substitutes.”
    Well, it made sense during the boom, since the total somehow ended up being more than the sum of all parts (e.g. cheap pergo flooring, cheap stainless steal appliances, etc.). But you’re right, ex SF-er, that it makes no sense to skimp in this case. Many people do stretch to buy houses, so it’s not a surprise sometimes.
    The other thing that surprises me is when people have amazingly crappy contractors do their work. A quarter-inch higher floor would have been a blessing compared to some of the stuff I’ve seen. You’d be amazed by some of the additions people do, many of which will need to be torn down, not because of lack of permits, but because they simply suck.

  13. 5 years in Noe Valley… Double digit percentage loss leading to a six figure dollar loss… All for a 2/1… gotta love it!
    We definitely need “backstory” fluj/anonn/anon/realtormon/realtormom to blow some smoke with cherry-picked mls figures in order to show us how the buyer “overpaid” back then without saying it.

  14. I have said it for years that it is insane to pay crazy money to live in some claustrophobic 80 years old fire and earthquake hazard SF rowhouse on a postage stamp size lot. Nice big homes are selling for under $100 a sq ft in decent Bay Area cities…

  15. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:
    Do it right, use good materials.
    Do it all with permits.

  16. After a kitchen remodel, I’m with noearch, with the caveats that “good materials” gets to the point of diminishing returns, and some “good materials” suck. For example, one can easily find woods that are 3x-5X (and much more) what ex SF-er’s high-end example costs. That would up the price to $6k-$8k just for the wood. But the difference in the end result would be barely noticeable — just a vanity project. And lots of high-end appliances (Subzero, Fisher & Paykel) look great but they are pieces of s*** from a longevity and reliability standpoint. Get a good, trustworthy contractor to discuss these things with, and spend some time researching the options, and avoid overpaying for mistakes, which is just as bad (or worse) than underpaying for them.

  17. Do it all with permits, or don’t do it at all.
    DYI-ers should assume that the next buyer won’t be as forgiving or as desperate or as unsophisticated as you are.

  18. Good comments by both AT and Brahma..nice to know there are some here who understand what “value” is really all about. Thank you.
    But seriously, sfrenegade: It should NOT make sense EVER to “skimp”. period. There are no good reasons to cut corners. Do it right, or don’t do it.
    And yes, the projects that usually “suck” as you say, by and large are those built by an incompetent contractor (often unlicensed), an ignorant or unaware homeowner, or a cheap homeowner, and lastly..often without any well thought out solutions by an architect.

  19. You get really cheap materials when people are using actual money to do the redo. Any penny spent is a penny out of your pocket. When you’ve got 15 desperate Peninsula tech slaves bidding each other out on a tiny row house, they usually gloss over the finishes. All they want is “win” the place.
    Another rationale: someone could rip out most of it and almost triple the square footage to maybe 2100sf, which would make the finishes irrelevant. Would it make any sense money-wise? First, that’s the wrong side of Noe. Bad zip code, sorry. Second, the work would bring the cost closer to 1.5M or more. I don’t really see it panning out on that block on a 1/2 lot. It will have to sell on its merits I guess.

  20. Nice big homes are selling for under $100 a sq ft in decent Bay Area cities…
    Where? The only place I see homes selling for that price is Richmond.
    There is a whole build out vs. buy thread that is worth exploring here. Making it 2100 sq ft would probably cost what? About $250 sq/ft? Make that $525k plus the $800k is $1.325M but then you need to add in a year of carrying costs or so. A reasonable price for that sized place but not a steal or anything. We are trying to decide if we should expand our current house or buy a bigger place, the mental calculus required it not simple.

  21. NoeValleyJim: $100 sq ft for a 5-10 year old larger house is the going price in Brentwood – a good city suffering the ill effect of the deflated bubble. A lot of law enforcement officers, fire fighters, teachers, young physicians, nurses, mid-level managers are out there.
    If a family makes $100-150k a year with kids, where can you get a 3500 sq ft home for $350k with decent schools ?

  22. We are trying to decide if we should expand our current house or buy a bigger place, the mental calculus required it not simple.
    I’ll second that. we just renovated our home last year (Hardi Plank siding, 17 new windows, 3 new wood doors, fixed minisplit central AC, all new electrical) and complete overhaul of exterior landscaping this year. Next year is probably new kitchen as well as basement rec room/bath.
    it doesn’t come cheap. it’s so much cheaper to do out here in flyoverland, but still hard to decide. a lot of disruption in the life and expense.
    for us, I absolutely love my neighbors and don’t even want to move 1 block so that’s what sold us on staying and completely overhauling… but the mental calculus is very difficult.

  23. I walked through this listing recently during an open house.
    It’s disappointing how small the place is, the ground floor level is only good to car and storage. For folks interested in a 2 bed, 2 bath with parking check out South Beach/Mission Bay
    This really is a tear down opp, the lot is tiny but with some imagination there is promise.

  24. “We are trying to decide if we should expand our current house or buy a bigger place, the mental calculus required it not simple.”
    Jim, I have 2 current Noe clients who did those calcs. (recently) and found that it was better for them to expand than move within Noe. You didn’t say if your search was Noecentric but if it is I would say you should expand. If your current house is worth $1.3M (just spitballin) and you want to buy a place at $1.6M you will spend about $150K just to move in agents, taxes and closing costs. So that $1.6M place is really $450K more than your current house. You can do a lot (your way) with that money and have a house worth much more than $1.6M. Lots of other math involved of course, your money vs. the banks money and so on.
    As for this place and it’s expansion potential the lot is a killer. No builder wants that kind of hindrance at the sale, Big house tiny lot. Not even that big a house when you have to set back the new story for Planning.

  25. All good points about expanding or moving. So much, I feel, depends on LOCATION. In other words, do you like where you live now, and do you basically like the house you are in? If so, then remodeling/expanding can make sense for you.
    We just completed a foundation to roof remodel and expansion of my home in Noe V. Made complete economic and emotional sense, as opposed to selling and moving somewhere else.

  26. “First, that’s the wrong side of Noe. Bad zip code, sorry.”
    LOL: Can you elaborate? I actually like that part of Noe alot and find it very desirable.

  27. Yea, exactly why is it the “bad” side of Noe? It’s one block from the J-church..one block to some great restaurants and cafes..and a 15 min walk to 24th st..
    whats the problem?

  28. I didn’t say “bad”. I said “wrong”.
    There are several Noes. The 24th street corridor is the most attractive. This is where most of the life in Noe is happening. I love Church street but it doesn’t have the same attraction. Good food, sure, and a few nice shops that 24th street doesn’t have. But there’s the feel that it’s a way through, not a destination like 24th.
    And about Zip codes, we’re in the 94114 vs 94131 debate. Where do you go set up your POBox? Where do you pick up the package you couldn’t sign on? 94114 is on 24th. 94131 is all the way up DH which is a totally different neighborhood.
    Another issue: walking to the city. Most of Northern Noe is ~40 minutes walking to your downtown job. Southern Noe becomes less attractive for that. I can understand why Peninsula workers would want to live there, but people who work in SF might prefer the other part.

  29. lol, how many people do you know who make a regular practice of walking 40 minutes each way to/from work?
    As an aside, I’ve always thought Noe’s part of 24th street is one of the lamest shopping districts in SF. I like the cheese shop (though the one in Cole Valley is much better). That’s about it. I actually prefer the Mission blocks of 24th — at least there’s some character (and better food) there.
    Back on topic, this POS shack for $907k is a great example of how absurd things got.

  30. lol..ok, so you’re playing word games with us. whatever.
    You’re trying to micromanage the different parts of Noe Valley. It’s all one neighborhood. get real.

  31. lol: Fair enough but I do disagree. About 5 years ago I suspect most people would have been in agreement with you but I think that the center of gravity in Noe has moved away from 24th Street.
    On the zip codes, it’s really not that big a deal. How many people actually go to the Post Office? And if they do, is it such a regular occurrence to be an inconvenience?

  32. I think its rather cute. This would be an ideal starter home, however 799k is no where near starter home prices.

  33. Agreed this is not starter home pricing. Prop 13 pretty much destroys what would be the target market for a home like this in the rest of the US – empty-nester downsizers. Now they just quit using 1/2 of the too big house they have low RE taxes on.

  34. how many people do you know who make a regular practice of walking 40 minutes each way to/from work?
    At least 4. All in the 94114 side of Noe.
    24th street is one of the lamest shopping districts in SF
    It’s getting there. The new Whole Foods is the tipping point I think. The uber-gentrification took businesses by surprise a few years ago. People with money meet aging mom-and-pops store. I am not sure they are mixing too well for now.
    This “village” atmosphere is what attracted young professionals in the first place. Now these are slowly take over by people looking for a hip alternative to Los Altos or Pacific Heights. They’ll want their stores. On 24th or Church.
    I think that the center of gravity in Noe has moved away from 24th Street.
    For millionaire commuters, maybe. I never saw the point of buying a NV address and spend almost 2 hours a day on the 280. I mean, there are many nice places in the peninsula or in the Valley and you have better weather and lots of room. NV is not the best compromise when you start looking at it a bit closely. You spend 10 hours a day at work, commute, do your week-end warrior thing and what’s left? Cold cold nights. Plus most of your colleagues and friends are 50 miles away. Bragging rights only go so far. I think some people will outgrow NV eventually.
    You’re trying to micromanage the different parts of Noe Valley. It’s all one neighborhood. get real.
    It’s all a matter of opinion. Sub-neighborhoods, then. But I feel a different vibe in these 2 areas.

  35. Of course its all a matter of opinion.
    Seems to me that 24th st. shops are “mixing” just fine with Whole Foods. How do you know they are not?
    Why even bother to compare a Noe V address with a peninsula address? completely different. one is urban. one is suburban. apples to oranges.
    Big deal.

  36. $100 sq ft for a 5-10 year old larger house is the going price in Brentwood
    Brentwood is in the Bay Area? I always considered it part of The Delta. You could commute there to San Francisco if you were really motivated I guess. Why does anyone with only two kids need 3500 sq ft? That’s what, a six bedroom four bath house?
    I would personally much rather live in a place half that size in Livermore or Pleasanton, especially if I worked in The City. You could also buy a two unit building for $700-800k and live in one and rent out the other. You can’t still get something for that price in Noe anymore but you can in someplace like Alameda or in The Mission. This probably only makes sense if you are in your 30s and have a reasonable expectation that your income will rise. It is possible to make it work (we did) but things were tight for a while.
    Having good schools is nice. That is worth a lot.

  37. I have 2 current Noe clients who did those calcs. (recently) and found that it was better for them to expand than move within Noe.
    Yeah we are coming to that conclusion, too. Our two unit building is worth less than $1.3M, but not by much: we have a large lot (125X25) and could easily expand. Right now we have two 1200 sq foot units and we are looking at our options now. But even the most expensive choice probably would cost somewhere around 1/2M and that would give us a nice rental downstairs, ~2500 sq feet upstairs and a parking space, which we lack currently.
    So you have to decide how big a place you want, how much you want to disrupt the lives of your family and tenants, how much you think your neighbors might object and how you are going to finance the whole thing. And then do the build vs. buy calculations. And that is before you even get started on the kind of tile you want in the bathroom
    We are having some preliminary plans drawn up now, what should I expect to pay for a licensed architects time? I don’t think we are going to pull the trigger until we know which school we are in which is not until next year, but I am planning ahead.

  38. Plus there is the whole bottom unit thing, do you sell it as a TIC then jump the condo conversion lottery queue? Before or after rehab?
    Too many choices.

  39. @noevalleyjim:
    If you are having preliminary plans “drawn up now”, I would assume you have a signed contract now with an architect, and the hourly fees or lump sum fee are in place. I would recommend you have that info before any drawing starts.
    As for licensed architect rates, they vary depending on the experience, portfolio and even the “status” of that architect. Most licensed architects start by charging an hourly rate with a maximum for a defined Scope of Work. Rates here in Sf typically are about $95-$150 per hour. Some architects charge a percentage of construction, but that can be tricky and not always good for the client. For example, if architect and client agree on a fixed const. budget of $500k, the fee could be in the range of 8-18%..varies a lot with each architect, and method of process.
    Other ways to keep your costs down: Depends on how much “legwork” you want to do vs. the architect. Will you do detailed measurements of existing conditions? Will you gather all planning code info and legal dimensions of lot? Will you file the preliminary 311 drawings with Planning Dept.? Will you prepare all 311 photos and documents? Will you interview at least 3 qualified contractors with detailed questions? Will you be bidding the project or negotiating the bid with just one contractor?..etc. All these tasks can often be done by homeowner, or shared with the architects services.
    Much to think about, but good you are planning ahead.

  40. Thanks for your advise noearch, we have a verbal agreement for charges and scope of work for him to do Phase I and II drawings, but you are right, we need something more formal, even if it is an email, so as to not have confusion later over what was agreed upon. It is only a few thousand dollars worth of work, but still this is a friend of a friend.
    My wife has a degree in City Planning, so she can chase down the paperwork and will probably want to do so.

  41. Well, you are on the right track, but a verbal agreement is not a legal valid contract. And, by state law, assuming this person is a licensed architect, he or she MUST execute a written contract to perform services. Not trying to be harsh, but it’s the law. The contract must carry 5 key provisions in writing as well.
    You can find out more by going to the California Architects Board website.
    I’m curious, however. Since you are currently working with someone now, why would you ask about current architect fees?

  42. Wow, that is good to know noearch, thanks for the info. As to your question: I mostly want to know if I am getting over charged or not. Given the rates you quoted, he is at the top end of it, so it looks like I might be a bit. Or not. But it is good to know in any case.
    I am just getting preliminary drawings and cost estimates now, I am not planning on getting the whole shebang done up until I make up my mind what to do. I don’t believe in change orders.
    I haven’t decided for sure if I am going to go with this guy for the full job to be completely honest. After I see what he does in the first stage I will have a better idea. I have looked at his web site and there is some stuff I like.

  43. “Why even bother to compare a Noe V address with a peninsula address? completely different…”
    Like many SF neighborhoods, NV has unique characteristics and there are not any really exact comps, even in the city itself. The closest NV alternates : Bernal, GP, Potrero, are not Noe at all (even though the first two abut!) though they each have their own character and positives.
    … one is urban. one is suburban. apples to oranges.”
    Yes, most of the peninsula is suburban. However there’s an interesting slice that would interest some of the buyers who like Noe. I’m thinking of the old commuter corridor. Surrounding many of the Caltrain stations are older walkable villages. This appeals to buyers who want character, a lively shopping district, and easy commutes to tech jobs. As a bonus lots are larger, schools are better, and parking is easy.
    The choices aren’t only “the city” vs. the burbs. Perhaps comparing the city to the railway villages is apples to pears.

  44. No problem NVjim…you’re welcome. Just keep in mind that contracts are for a purpose: to clarify to both parties what is or is not included in the fee, including time frames, deliverables, schedule of payments and termination and dispute clause. Some clients would argue that if you “trust” the other party, why have a contract, but in fact a contract is all the more important when, in fact, you DO trust each other.
    I have heard countless stories that turn into huge problems, legal and other wise when both parties made broad assumptions and worked without a contract. Be wise. Be careful.
    His fees sound high for what the services are, at present. I assume he or she is a licensed architect?
    Keep in mind also that “preliminary drawings” and cost estimates do not often show the true cost of the project. As long as you are aware of final costs and unknowns, then you’re on the right track.

  45. Yes, thanks for your input. Given what you have said, it is entirely possible that what I thought was a verbal agreement to do work was more of a bid or offer and in fact, we don’t have an agreement at all! I am clarifying now since I have been out of town on vacation.
    I agree that it is important to have written agreements with people you know, after all if a business deal goes bad you are only out some money but if you end up with bad feelings with a friend or even just an acquaintance, the cost is higher.
    Plus my wife, always the practical one, wants to get three bids…

  46. No problem. Important to ask a lot of questions and be clear as to what YOU want and what YOU are getting..
    Pardon my assumption, but it sounds like you are not working with a licensed architect?

  47. Generally speaking, verbal contracts are enforcible, with limited exception for certain types of agreements that are required to be in writing. (Consult California’s statute of frauds for a list of these.) I’m not aware that contracts for architectural services are required to be in writing.
    Just don’t want anyone out there to get the wrong idea.

  48. The following are the only types of agreements that must be in writing:
    “California Civil Code Section 1624. (a) The following contracts are invalid, unless they, or somenote or memorandum thereof, are in writing and subscribed by theparty to be charged or by the party’s agent:
    (1) An agreement that by its terms is not to be performed within a year from the making thereof.
    (2) A special promise to answer for the debt, default, or miscarriage of another, except in the cases provided for in Section 2794.
    (3) An agreement for the leasing for a longer period than one year, or for the sale of real property, or of an interest therein;
    such an agreement, if made by an agent of the party sought to be charged, is invalid, unless the authority of the agent is in writing,
    subscribed by the party sought to be charged.
    (4) An agreement authorizing or employing an agent, broker, or any other person to purchase or sell real estate, or to lease real
    estate for a longer period than one year, or to procure, introduce, or find a purchaser or seller of real estate or a lessee or lessor of
    real estate where the lease is for a longer period than one year,for compensation or a commission.
    (5) An agreement that by its terms is not to be performed during the lifetime of the promisor.
    (6) An agreement by a purchaser of real property to pay an indebtedness secured by a mortgage or deed of trust upon the property
    purchased, unless assumption of the indebtedness by the purchaser is specifically provided for in the conveyance of the property.
    (7) A contract, promise, undertaking, or commitment to loan money or to grant or extend credit, in an amount greater than one hundred
    thousand dollars ($100,000), not primarily for personal, family, or household purposes, made by a person engaged in the business of
    lending or arranging for the lending of money or extending credit.”

  49. “I never saw the point of buying a NV address and spend almost 2 hours a day on the 280. ”
    Even after 10 years I am still confused by this phenomenon LOL mentions above. If you are using San Franicsco’s southern neighborhoods as a bedroom community, how are really “enjoying” the city or living a city lifestyle?
    This pattern is not unique to Noe Valley or San Francisco however. I was just reading some statistics presented by a client for a project about to begin planning, and hopefully, construction in Chicago. Buyers and renters in their 20’s and 30’s are making the choice to live in the cental city neighborhoods and take trains and cars to distant suburban corporate jobs (if they cannot find positions in the central city). The higher the income, the more they are likely to want to live in the city and travel far distances to jobs that might be located in suburban office parks.

  50. @sanfrantim:
    Sorry to burst your bubble and not trying to offend you but you are somewhat misinformed about what types of agreements are to be in writing, including architects.
    By law, all licensed architects (in CA)..must provide a written contract to all clients, with some minor exceptions. This applies to most building types with some exceptions noted. Architects are not governed alone by just the California Civil Code. The architects agreement is mandated to also contain 5 key provisions defining such items as 1) description of services, 2) description of basis of compensation and method of payment, 3) name, address and license number of the architect and name, address of the client, 4) description of the procedure to accommodate additional services, and 5) description of the procedure to be used by either party for termination of the contract.
    You, or anyone can see this information at the California Architects Board: http://www.cab.ca.gov
    Other states have similar laws.
    And no, I don’t want anyone to get the wrong idea either.

  51. Architect and client enter into a verbal agreement whereby client agrees to pay X dollars for architect’s clearly specified services. Architect performs the services according to the oral contract, but client refuses to pay, citing licensing regulations allegedly requiring architect to provide a writing.
    Architect sues client to recover the amounts owed. I would take architect’s case and I think I’d win.
    Agreed that its always better to get things in writing and certain regulations may require architects to provide them, but a contract is a contract, even if it is verbal (unless it is one of those exceptions set forth above)

  52. Verbal agreements can go terribly wrong even for small jobs. A few years ago I hired a contractor for a small job for which he gave me a verbal quote of $240-280. He invested about two hours in the job, accomplished absolutely nothing, and then disappeared. Multiple phone calls were not returned. I even stumbled across him working on another house about three months later and asked him face-to-face when he’d be back to finish my job. “Oh sure, right after I wrap this up I’ll be over on Monday”. Three more weeks pass, and still a complete no-show.
    So I hired a different contractor to do the job. He did so quickly and promptly. One day and $180 later the job is done.
    Lo and behold about four months later a very detailed bill arrives in the mail from the original AWOL contractor. It is clear that he sat down and drew up a stack of imaginary invoices because they’re on serial numbered business forms. Even though his “documented work” spans several weeks, all of the form serial numbers are contiguous. The total : $2700 !
    Of course now I switch to written communication. I expressed alarm that he’s asking 10x of what we originally agreed (for incomplete work !) while generously offering to pay the upper end of our oral agreement ($280). But that was to no avail, he followed up the next year with another invoice for about $4500, the increase due to interest and penalties.
    He’s threatening to take me to court which I dread though I believe that I have a solid case in my favor, having offered to settle our agreement on generous terms.
    I think that the lesson here is to get a written contract in place even for tiny jobs, you never know if you’re hiring a psycho. Most contractors use written contracts for their own protection anyways.

  53. @mod,
    if he is doing work over the value of $500 it is his responsibility to provide you with a written contract. without your signature on this contract he basically does not have squat. i would call his bluff and mock him miserably…

  54. @sanfrantim: I don’t think we are necessarily arguing against each other. I’m not making up the contract requirements. They are clearly stated on the California Architects Board website. And the exceptions are, of course, noted.
    But, I’m just wondering why would one ever advocate to use a verbal contract in any situation with an architect or contractor. If so, it seems to me to be just pure ignorance and exceptional risk. Of course, in most cases, the architect him/herself can NOT use the verbal agreement. I would never work with a client who will not sign one of my 7 page contracts. No signing, no deal. And yes, like MOD says, get a written contract even for tiny jobs. That rule applies to my work as well, even for a small bath remodel. The written contract spells out, in great detail, all aspects of the business relationship, which can never be fully expressed in a verbal contract.
    I would assume you are a lawyer, and if so, surprised you have never heard of the contract requirements for licensed architects in this state. Thank you.

  55. I don’t know, where I grew up in Wyoming, most business is done with handshake deals.
    Even here in San Francisco it is not really that uncommon: when I made an agreement to feed 150 people at our wedding banquet in Chinatown, I asked for a contract and they didn’t really understand what I was talking about. I wrote up a one paragraph agreement that we both signed, but my wife told me that the only reason they even tolerated that was because I am white. She said that if I was Chinese and had asked for a signed contract they would have been offended.

  56. Interesting observations I’m seeing. I wonder why there is push back against the written contract approach to business deals..Wyoming is probably a wonderful, beautiful place, but I doubt that architectural design and construction is handled the same way here in SF. I suppose handshake deals work well in Wyoming, although I probably would not work that way.
    I only keep emphasizing the importance of written contracts here for architect/client relationships and contractor work is because the client is essentially about to spend a large amount of hard earned money on a project and that client wants and should expect quality work, and the work carried out in the manner he wants. That’s what it really is about:
    Protecting your investment.
    But I’m curious NVjim: you have volunteered to say whether youare working with a licensed architect or not. No offense, but still wondering here. Thanks.

  57. I would assume you are a lawyer, and if so, surprised you have never heard of the contract requirements for licensed architects in this state.
    noearch, law is a specialized profession. Most lawyers (including me; I do patent litigation) would never have heard of California state law requirements for architecture contracting. sanfrantim is presenting the normal common law rule that everyone learns in Contracts class in their first year of law school (and rememorizes for the bar exam). But it’s not surprising to me that there may be sets of regulations overriding the normal rule in specialized settings; nor is it surprising that someone who’s a lawyer would not know this one way or the other (unless their practice was in construction law).

  58. Fair enough. Law may be a specialized profession, as you say, but I am VERY surprised that you or other lawyers at least did not have an “awareness” or “expectation” that architectural services did not require written contracts. In school we were required to take several courses in contract law.
    It is an essential component of architectural services, along with skills in design, urban planning, construction techniques, codes, materials and structural technology and writing and communication.

  59. noearch, you’re required, typically, to take one course in contract law. Obviously, most contracts are not architectural contracts. And (unless you’re at a lesser law school where everyone is just hoping for a small, local job), you don’t learn state-specific statutes carving out exceptions for subcategories of contracts. It would be a huge waste of time (there are 50 states, after all), and it’s the kind of thing that you’d look up and learn immediately on the job if construction law was your thing.
    It’s not surprising that you were forced to learn this in architecture school. The law affects what architects can do. But architecture has basically nothing to do with what the great majority of lawyers do.
    Sorry — this is pretty far off topic now.

  60. Forced???……..ah, ok.
    Well, thanks for your opinion. I don’t, for the most part, disagree with you. We just have different points of view. I do appreciate you saying you are a lawyer within this discussion.
    It’s not really off topic; threads tend to move in all kinds of interesting directions.

  61. I’d just also note that, according to my quick research, the code provision requiring architecture contracts to be in writing (Section 5536.22, to those keeping track at home) was not even added to the California business code until 1995; so the notion that this is such an obvious thing that any lawyer ought to expect to be the case appears to be belied by history.

  62. Ok, well, it seems as if I’ve struck a nerve with you. Not my intention at all. This is just a dialogue.
    But, to a point: no, we were not “forced” at all to take contract law in architecture school. It’s part of the curriculum, that’s all. Just like I wasn’t forced to take structural engineering, or architectural history..
    And…..1995 was 15 years ago, so I made the assumption that most younger lawyers would at least have a cursory knowledge of the architect/contract issue. That’s all.

  63. “Agreed that its always better to get things in writing and certain regulations may require architects to provide them, but a contract is a contract, even if it is verbal (unless it is one of those exceptions set forth above)”
    Re: to reconcile what noearch said with what sanfrantim said, my guess is that a verbal architect’s contract would be a valid contract under California law and enforceable. However, it might be a problem with CAB, and CAB might want to take an enforcement action.

  64. @sfrenegrade: Yes, for the most part, I agree with you. But lets be clear.
    If someone wants to use a verbal contract with a CA architect, they can try that approach. But, here’s the rift:
    It’s not that it “might” be a problem. It’s that it “will” be a problem with the CAB, and that particular architect. That’s all I’m saying.
    If a licensed architect in Ca and a client in Ca is stupid enough to use a verbal contract for architectural services, then they both will suffer the consequences. It’s AGAINST the law.
    I really don’t get why this is even an issue, within this discussion thread.

  65. “In school we were required to take several courses in contract law.”
    “we were not “forced” at all to take contract law in architecture school.”
    Which one was it?

  66. “If a licensed architect in Ca and a client in Ca is stupid enough to use a verbal contract for architectural services, then they both will suffer the consequences. It’s AGAINST the law.”
    That’s not quite right. The client will not suffer any legal consequences. This is in the Business and Professions Code, so it’s meant to protect consumers. The burden is on the architect.
    But agree with Shza that there’s very little reason for most lawyers to know anything about this.

  67. Yes, it is. You need to think a little more broad minded. The client can, indeed suffer consequences in many ways without a written contract.
    With just a verbal contract here’s a few possibilities of what they could suffer:
    1. No clearly defined amount of fees for service.
    2. Architectural services vague and undefined.
    3. Lack of a time frame for completion of services.
    4. No real definition of the deliverables to be produced by the architect.
    5. The drawings could be inadequate to secure a building permit.
    6. There could be no way to discuss how the architect will charge for “additional services”.
    7. There is no detailed, written Scope of Work.
    8. There is no defined way of settling disputes, thru arbitration or mediation, or other methods.
    9. There is no clear way for either party to terminate the contract.
    I could go on and on. I only trying to point out that you can NOT possibly cover all of the myriad details and understandings that are necessary for an architect and client to complete a project, with a mere verbal contract. Just not possible. I pity the architect and client who tries it.

  68. noearch, I realize that, and I don’t think we disagree here — that’s why I said “legal consequences.” Several of those things you mention could happen even with a contract, and several of those things could be implied by custom under certain circumstances (e.g. #5, #6, but especially #8, #9)

  69. The discussion about contracts has been interesting and very eye opening to me, as a homeowner. I want to remodel my house at some point and I know that it will cost money and should be handled by professionals. I’m amazed at the number of comments against the architects statements about the importance of contracts. Why would you even argue that point?
    and then others apparently can’t seem to offer that they are a lawyer…they just disappeer. others can’t seem to say if they are dealing with a licenced architect or not. whats the problem.
    good discussion though.

  70. “Why would you even argue that point?”
    You should read more carefully, checkinnow, as there were more subtleties in the conversation. I don’t think anyone thought it was better not to have a contract. The discussion was actually about the consequences of not having a contract.
    Anyway, as to your latter point, people are suspicious of giving information that may determine their identity, and certainly no one is obligated to answer any particular question asked on SocketSite. That shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

  71. to sfren: well, maybe but a lot of people jumped on the architect for his opinions. they seem threatened. to me. but you know, anyone can choose any kind of “name” here and still be anonymous…that is not giving away your identity.
    I mean Shza said he was a patent lawyer, and had some pretty good comments. he didnt give aaway much.
    it seems pretty clear that sanfrantim is a lawyer, given the extensive info he showed a lot of stuff about the calif. civil code.
    I was hoping the person called noevallyjim would comment whether he was using a licenced architect or not. would have made his comments more legitamate, in my opinion.

  72. what should I expect to pay for a licensed architects time?
    Why should I have to repeat myself, it was clear enough the first time, I think.
    Plus, I don’t read Socketsite during the day, or at least I try not to. I am usually too busy with my real job.

  73. gosh, nvjim, you sound a little defensive. you never mentioned specifically that you were working with a licenced architect to draw up your plans. some of us were just wondering..in the context of the recent chats.
    btw: I peak in here a lot and I see your comments a lot during the day..just sayin.

  74. NVJ-
    I think checkinnow is noearch and he can’t get over it. He desperately wants you to find out your guy isn’t licensed so he can stay up on his soapbox.

  75. Just because this conversation generated so much debate, I thought I would update. noearch is right, the licensed architect I talked to is just putting together a proposal, not doing the modest amount of work (3 days or so) that we talked about. OF the four parties privy to the conversation, both me and my tenet, who referred the architect, thought that we had a verbal agreement to do work. My wife and the architect in question understood that we were just having a preliminary discussion. She has worked as a construction project manager so she is more familiar with industry standards that I am. Thanks to all who took part.

  76. Thanks for the update NVJ..and the clarification. Much appreciated.
    This certainly has been an interesting thread..in many ways.

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