CFAH

4114 20th Street
Purchased for $1,513,000 in October of 2007, 4114 20th Street returned to the market in Eureka Valley this past January asking $1,695,000 but was withdrawn in February after reducing its price to $1,598,000.
4114%2020th%20Street%20Kitchen.jpg
Back on the market today and asking an enticing $1,150,000 as a short sale. There’s a hearsay story behind the sale that we’re not going to tell, but let’s just say a tipster told us to be on the lookout for the house as a foreclosure almost four months ago.
And perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised that the listing doesn’t mention it’s agent owned.
UPDATE: A plugged-in reader notes:

The MLS listing does include the following in the agent [i.e., non-public] remarks: “Lender has already approved short sale price but is requesting COE on or before 8/27/09. Seller is a licensed CA real estate agent.”

∙ Listing: 4114 20th Street (4/3) – $1,150,000 [MLS]

Comments from Plugged-In Readers

  1. Posted by jonj

    Oooohhhh, tell us more. We’re discrete.

  2. Posted by Pritchard

    Eureka Valley = heterosexual for “Castro.” (Or pre-lapsarian, circa 1976.)

  3. Posted by jw2200

    The MLS listing does include the following in the agent remarks: “Lender has already approved short sale price but is requesting COE on or before 8/27/09. Seller is a licensed CA real estate agent.” Checking the DRE web site, the agent’s license appears to have a “non working” status which means, among other things, that he/she can’t represent themselves in the sale.
    Like many other pieces of information, this is a required disclosure but there’s no requirement that it be part of the public MLS data. Why the “perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised that the listing doesn’t mention” comment?

  4. Posted by eddy

    maybe they will give the full commission to the buyers agent.

  5. Holy stretched photos Batman ! That’s one of the most egregious uses of a fisheye wide angle lens posted here this week.
    Whenever I see such distorted images, instead of being wowed by how large the rooms look instead it raises a flag “this place must be tiny !”
    The human eye sees the world much like a 50mm lens on a normal 35mm SLR camera. Why not take photos of properties that appear like what a human would see rather than a goldfish ? C’mon : go wide if you need to capture more of the room, but lets say 28mm at the widest.
    I’m tired of seeing chairs that look like benches and doorways that look like they are wide enough to accommodate a nursing home wheelchair.
    Compare these photos to the photos of Louis XIV’s flat and you can see what normal photos should look like. Granted Louis XIV’s place is larger and has less need for the fisheye to take it all in, but certainly photographers of modest homes can be more creative using longer lenses.

  6. Posted by eddy

    The owners of 4118 2 doors down the street cannot be too happy about their $1.6M purchase in April of 2007. Then again, it was an excellent comp for 4114 so I’m sure there is no love lost between JG and his neighbors. Slightly less happy are the owners of 4110 who purchased their home in May 2005 for what seems like $1.2 – $1.4. A brief stroll of this block shows many sales in the past few years. The sale of this home (4114) at its current ask will essentially destroy about $1M of wealth.
    Meanwhile, the owners of 4127 will have a 100%+ gain on their $475k home purchased in ’91.

  7. Posted by OneEyedMan

    Let us again congratulate an ’07 seller @ $1,513,000. This one bought in ’97 for $527K.

  8. Posted by LMRiM

    Purchased by a REALTOR® for $1.5M just two years ago, and now down somewhere north of 20% (we’ll know exactly I guess when it sells). Another sad tale of a drug dealer who used his own product.

  9. Posted by curmudgeon

    My tip! yay

  10. Posted by San FronziScheme

    Another sad tale of a drug dealer who used his own product.
    Spilled my double-expresso right out!
    So true. They were selling shovels and making a darn good buck, then tried to prospect for gold themselves.

  11. Posted by Lurker

    I think the 2007 seller is a local bankruptcy attorney (or, at least, has the same name as one). I guess we know in hindsight who had the better market sense. Still, what a terrible shame for Mr. Mo-xxxx. On that note, why is everyone so hush-hush on his name, btw? It’s on the public record, if I’m reading it correctly.

  12. Posted by Trip

    Lurker, the ironies you note crack me up. I think it’s safe to say that since 2007 practicing bankruptcy law has provided a more solid economic foundation than selling real estate. But whodathunk it would also provide more real estate savvy?

  13. Posted by San FronziScheme

    RE: Distortion of the pictures
    It just reminded me of Dr Who’s 1950s “blue police box” that is actually a huge space-time vessel once you enter it.

  14. Posted by Shza

    1.15M for a 4/3 in that location seems cheap. Does anyone more familiar with the place know approximately how big it is? (sq ft not listed — though I hear you, Milkshake, on the suspect stretched photos)

  15. Posted by eddy

    Looks like these homes are all around 1400sqft.

  16. Posted by LMRiM

    About $1.15M seeming cheap for a 4/3, I don’t know the micro-neighborhood well enough to have a real opinion. (On a fundamental value level, of course, $1.15M is absurd – no need to really get too into the nabe to make that call!)
    Here is a much nicer looking SS-featured 4/3 about 2-3 blocks from this property, 3859 21st Street:
    https://socketsite.com/archives/2009/06/3859_21st_street_the_one_with_the_deer_lion_on_it.html
    At 119DOM, I think we can safely say that that one is down more than 10% from its 2007 price.
    It does look like a lot of people are going to get trapped in these places in Eureka Valley – well, at least until the market chews through the downpayments and they go short sale or foreclosure.

  17. Posted by diemos

    “Let us again congratulate an ’07 seller @ $1,513,000. This one bought in ’97 for $527K.”
    And while we’re at it let’s have a moment of silence for the taxpayers who will be supplying this million dollar profit.

  18. Posted by San FronziScheme

    I wonder how much mortgage principal has ever been repaid on all this debt. 100K? 150K? What a giant Ponzi. A system running on the fumes of money.

  19. Posted by San FronziScheme

    I meant since 1997 of course. Of course the principal paid since 2007 must be pretty minimal.

  20. Posted by curmudgeon

    I think 21st street is much bigger than 20th (haven’t been in 20th yet). It feels like a real house, albeit with a bit more victoriana than my taste. And 21st is on the better side of the street, IMHO. 20th street cascades down the hill on the back, and the garden is in shadow and is way below living areas. 21st is the opposite with a walk out south facing backyard. Also, note that 20th street is all under the eaves on the top floor.
    Looking forward to seeing it, but I’m guessing that 4 br’s are really squeezed into the 20th street house, and are definitely divided between the original upper bedroom floor, and the addition that cascades down the hill. Some people may like that for separation, but I find it annoying.
    Still…at $1.15 this is getting near what a condo was in the nabe a couple years back. It is hard to believe that it would actually go this low, but clearly things are dynamic on the down side at the moment. This will be interesting….

  21. Posted by neenerneenerneener

    If you aren’t going to tell something, then just keep it to yourself from the get-go. Hinting that there is some secret backstory that you know but aren’t going to tell us is childish.
    The 2007 seller saw what was coming from his work as a bankruptcy attorney and realized it was time to sell. He had owned the place for a while and had done a lot of work on it, much of it himself. He was also a single man with no children who didn’t need a house and moved into an apartment building owned by a close friend.

  22. Posted by tipster

    “Lender has already approved short sale price but is requesting COE on or before 8/27/09” at which point the effects of the foreclosure moratoria expire and all hell breaks loose.

  23. Posted by pumpkin patch

    I am not sure I can deal with buying a home that just caused financial pain to its present owner.
    This is ugly. Ugly, I say.
    The fundamentals made no sense a few years ago so, we stayed on the sidelines…
    But…to see it blow up. It is painful…
    And, we want to buy…but the psychological part…man, it is difficult…

  24. Posted by curmudgeon

    The hearsay was mine, and that was that a relatively well know real estate agent had not been paying his mortgage and was expecting his house to go in foreclosure. Turned out it was true. That makes an interesting story, and it may be sad or it may be schadenfreude depending on how you think about real estate agents. But I personally don’t think it’s necessary to name names on Socketsite, and I think the editor handled it well.

  25. Posted by Willow

    Question: Is there anything specific that would prevent the previous seller from buying this back from the current seller in a short sale? (Not that he would. Although for one thing we do know that he has losts of $$$$.) Just interesting to know if this has ever been done before.

  26. Posted by michelle

    The seller overpaid in 2007, and the would be buyer will underpay in 2009.
    Therefore, prices in Eureka Valley have hardly moved at all, a sure sign of strength.
    Sorry, I couldn’t resist 😉

  27. Posted by anonarch

    If an architect’s own house they designed and built had a roof that leaked, and walls that now tilted, should we not post their name?
    If a landscape builder’s front yard had trees that were dead, weeds and soil erosion, are we not allowed to speak the name of their company?
    Realtors are much kinder to each other than other “professions”.

  28. Posted by curmudgeon

    anonarch, i’m not a realtor, so I wouldn’t know.

  29. Posted by anonarch

    ^^^Apologies. I understand why people are being discrete, but was unsure if it was just an act of courtesy, or realtors acting differently than what I observe in my own profession. I am glad it is common courtesy.

  30. Posted by Shza

    “discreet”
    Sorry to be obnoxious but it’s been two-for-two.

  31. Posted by flaneur

    And while we’re at it let’s have a moment of silence for the taxpayers who will be supplying this million dollar profit.
    No US taxpayer needs to supply this million dollar trophy. The Treasury issues treasuries, and the Federal Reserve buys them. Voila.
    As to how this affect treasuries holders, most of them are not American anyway.

  32. Posted by San FronziScheme

    I understand why people are being discrete, but was unsure if it was just an act of courtesy, or realtors acting differently than what I observe in my own profession. I am glad it is common courtesy.

    anonarch,
    Maybe, just maybe this just has to do with the nature of RE? You usually have 2 agents in a sale, which means a constant interraction with many other agents. Plus you have visits, negociations and that implies even more interraction even if you do not close. I suppose you want to stay polite with as many people as possible.

  33. Posted by eddy

    @willow, I’m sure the bank doesn’t care who ends up with the property, but foreclosure auctions usually require the buyer to essentially have cash on hand to buy the home.

  34. Posted by jonj

    Pumpkin, not too clear on the lyrics.
    Two years ago, the price was too high and you couldn’t afford to buy. Now, it offends your sensitivities to take advantage of those buyers who cannot afford those homes?
    Is that about it?
    You sound like a good person. You’re not a realtor…. are you?

  35. Posted by FixThis

    I guess club promoting is as soft as real estate sales these days…

  36. Posted by diemos

    “I am not sure I can deal with buying a home that just caused financial pain to its present owner.”
    Dr. Diemos says, “Simply close your eyes and visualize all of your tax dollars going to the various unworthies of this fiasco and that should instantly alleviate any pangs of guilt associated with providing shelter for you and your family.”
    Remember, foreclosure is not the problem it’s the solution. It allows people in a mortgage they can’t afford to walk away from that mortgage and start renting an apartment they can afford. It allows someone who can afford the house to make use of that resource. It provides a stinging rebuke to people who made foolish loans. It provides a stinging rebuke to people who paid foolish prices (to the extent they put down their own money). At least in theory, in a free market.
    And so far not one single person in the US has lost “their” home. Because if you have a mortgage it’s not “your” home, it’s the banks home. They just let you pretend to own it as long as you pay the rent. If not, then the sheriff’s deputies show up to give you a quick reality check on just how much you “own” that house.

  37. Posted by Stu

    Is the approved short sale price 1.15?

  38. Posted by eddy

    Stu, in a short sale the bank agrees to sell the home for less than the loan amount in order to avoid a costly, timely and likely lower price from a foreclosure process. In this case, $1.15 is the price the bank would consider taking for this home. The bank would likely receive all of the proceeds from a sale and the ‘owner’ simply gets to walk away, although I believe the balance of the diff between the loan value and the sale value gets realized as taxable income to the ‘owner’. It’s possible that the bank would acept a lower price that $1.15, but they are certainly hoping to get more than that price.

  39. Posted by Max 2

    Pictures 11 and 12 are candidates for:
    http://www.lovelylisting.com/

  40. Posted by Stu

    thanks eddy. I guess I was a little shocked at the size of the haircut here, and I was wondering if the asking price was set lower than the “already approved short sale price” in an attempt to draw overbids. I suppose that without knowing how much was put down it’s hard to say how aggressive the bank is being. Seems like a good price to me (and my imaginary 1.15 million).
    But that brings up another question. Who does the listing agent work for in a short sale, the individual or the bank? If the agent works for the individual, does the bank have to be made aware of all offers?

  41. Posted by diemos

    “in an attempt to draw overbids.”
    My interpretation would be that they would be delighted to get an overbid but they’re serious about moving this property and 1.15 million is the approved price.
    “Who does the listing agent work for in a short sale, the individual or the bank?”
    The listing agent always works for his own commission. Whose pocket it’s coming out of is irrelevant.

  42. Posted by anonn

    Because if you have a mortgage it’s not “your” home, it’s the banks home
    When speaking informally among friends, do you ever utter the phrase, “My apartment” ? Or do you say, “The place where I dwell that my landlord has financed, which actually belongs to a bank” ? If it’s the former, which I think it is, give that one a rest already.

  43. Posted by diemos

    I was into watching Suze Orman for a year back around the dot bomb and while her investment advice is just the standard middle-class pablum she did have a couple of sayings that I thought were gems. One was, “Truth creates money and lies destroy it.”
    Yes, I refer to my dwelling as “My apartment” all the time. Yet not for a millisecond do I ever forget that it is someone else’s property that I am renting.
    Plenty of people out there in the world are being consumed by a lie. That they “own” the property they are renting from the bank. Plenty of people are lying awake at night, driving themselves to a nervous breakdown, trying to figure out how to “save” “their” home. Trying to preserve their social status as “homeowners” when that was never anything but a figment of their imagination.
    If they would simply face the truth they could solve their problems instantly. They could walk away from that underwater home that was never “theirs” to begin with and instantly improve their financial situation by renting something they could afford.
    But first they have to accept the truth and as I’ve told you before one of my favorite sayings is, “The truth shall set you free, but first it’s going to piss you off.”

  44. Posted by fixthis

    @jw220 who stated “Checking the DRE web site, the agent’s license appears to have a “non working” status which means, among other things, that he/she can’t represent themselves in the sale.”
    I believe this is incorrect information since my reading of DRE shows “licensed”….

  45. Posted by ex SF-er

    “Who does the listing agent work for in a short sale, the individual or the bank?”
    In general the individual’s and the bank’s interests are in alignment for the most part. (they both want the highest sales price)
    the only divergence in desires is that it’s in the individual’s interest to sell ASAP since they’re theoretically paying the monthly nut month after month, whereas it’s not necessarily in the bank’s interest to sell ASAP. (they want the higher price first and foremost which may or may not occur if the home is sold quickly)
    that all said: the realtor works for the seller not the bank.

  46. Posted by anonn

    Diemos, I pretty much disagree with everything you say, but you are the best poster on this website. Nice one. I agree. Lots of people are just as you characterized.

  47. Posted by curmudgeon

    Just saw the place, and have a few comments. It is not a 4 br place, by any stretch of the imagination. There is a master suite on the top floor that is very well done…a previous owner took what was two small brs and converted one into a dressing room (the top window on the street facade), with the br in back and a nice deck and master bath off it. Could convert that back to 2 br, but then the bath is through one of the brs.
    “3rd” bedroom is the room immediately to the left of the center entry. Per usual in this type of house it is tiny, and more suited to an office.
    “4th” br is located at the basement level, and is only accessible from the garage or the deck. It’s a nice room with its own bath, but would really only work for guests.
    The house is fantastic for a single or couple. It is generally well done. But just want to point out that, per usual, the number of “bedrooms” is rather exaggerated.

  48. Posted by NoeNut

    This is very cheap for this block. I will be very surprised if it doesn’t go for more than asking. The house someone above wanted to compare it to is listed for $1.895 2 blocks away.
    No, I’m not a realtor nor a friend of the seller.

  49. Posted by curmudgeon

    But that hasn’t moved at $1.895 and is currently seeking rentals. There’s also one on the market literally around the corner on Noe that’s listing for about $1.65…but that’s been on the market forever and has not moved.
    I’d also be surprised if it didn’t go for more than asking, but it seems very difficult to guess what the real market price is. I’ll hazard a guess and say $1.3, but other people on this board have a better sense of market than I do.

  50. Posted by Solis

    @ Miklshake of Despair: I love that refrigerator in the kitchen. Finally one WIDE enough to store a pig for the next backyard luau. Also makes those frequent trips to Costco less aggravating.

  51. Posted by SFLooking

    As background, the previous residence of this “owner” was the double loft conversion that frequently posted on SS and currently on the market on Howard (he was behind all the demo and renos)
    https://socketsite.com/archives/2009/07/the_market_takes_a_bite_out_of_a_lighthouse_lofts_signa.html

  52. Posted by gfb

    It’s not too hard to find info on this one on your own people. Saw the buy price on propertyshark.com by someone named Jito Garcia. Quick Google check has info on him…RE agent, etc.

  53. Posted by curmudgeon

    bingo

  54. Posted by auden

    why the hard COE on 8/27? I don’t see an NOD on the property…

  55. Posted by Auden

    Well, regardless of the weird close date… I’m going to guess that this property is worth around $1,300,000, so it is very attractively priced at 1,150,000.

  56. Posted by SocketSite

    As we said, “asking an enticing $1,150,000.” And now in contract.

  57. Posted by curmudgeon

    yow…I want to know how much. And yes, it’s because I’m a neighbor….

  58. Posted by 94114

    I’m a neighbor too!

  59. Posted by Fishy

    Supposedly 14 offers on the place…

  60. Posted by tipster

    …and if the past is any guide, of those 14 offers: 10 of them were below asking, 2 very near asking and two were in the realm of reality.
    Translation, there is only one other buyer who is interested at the current price, but when prices come down by another 20%, lots more buyers will materialize.
    Of course, half of them will be scared away by falling prices!

  61. Posted by sanfrantim

    tipster’s dreaming. This goes for substantially over asking with multiple above-list offers. Market’s back.

  62. Posted by anonn

    Translation, there is only one other buyer who is interested at the current price, but when prices come down by another 20%, lots more buyers will materialize.
    Of course, half of them will be scared away by falling prices

    Translation: I’m going to say whatever negative spin pops into my head at this moment in time because I don’t really care and I’m an anonymous person on the internet.

  63. Posted by tipster

    Not by a long shot. But we’ve caught on to your “14 offers” spiel, and it doesn’t work any longer.
    If I went out on Market Street and offered $100 bills for $90, I’d have plenty of “offers”, probably way more than 14, some even over asking. But it wouldn’t mean that $100 bills were worth more than $100. Or that they would soon be worth more than $100. Or that the market for $100 bills had suddenly changed.
    It just means that if I price something artificially low, I get a greater demand than I would if I priced at the market. This place was offered at 82 cents on the dollar (1.15M/1.4M). No surprise what happened. Not indicative of anything other than lots of people will buy something that is way under market, if only to turn right back around and resell it.
    The market is what it is, and I’m sure this went for at least $1.4M. But 14 offers at 1.4 didn’t materialize. What materialized were the usual bottom fishers and others who thought they might get it at or near the asking price.
    The usual realtor feigned surprise “wow, that place got 14 offers: better hurry or you’ll be priced out forever” is old and tired and doesn’t work any longer. We’re smarter than that and those of us who might still fall for those manipulative tricks get stopped cold by Mr. Banker and his friend, Mr. Appraiser.
    If the market was back, they’d have priced it a lot closer to what they paid and it would have sold. They did that and it didn’t sell, remember Mr. “Market’s back”?

  64. Posted by anonn

    Let’s be clear. Your “we” is not the “we” making offers on property, but rather, the “we” sitting around kibbitzing about how the “we making offers on property are stupid. There have always been fence sitters and naysayers in every single market. It’s nothing new or special because it’s on a blog. And was it a realtor who mentioned the multiple offers? How can you be so sure? (You can’t.)

  65. Posted by San FronziScheme

    Who could have known that by knocking off 25% from 2007 peak prices you’d get some interest! A Realtor found his brain back after a long painful denial phase. A banker got to his senses he wasn’t in the business of owning empty houses.
    Most importantly:
    A buyers gets a home for way less than he would have paid had he listened to fluj/anonn in 2007-2008.

  66. Posted by anonn

    A buyers gets a home for way less than he would have paid had he listened to fluj/anonn in 2007-2008.
    Oh really? When I was saying “Buy buy buy” “Buy from me now?” on Socketsite?
    That never happened, little man.
    Of course they got a bunch of offers on this place. The price went down a ton! The only issue I had was with Tipster’s characterization. He went overboard.
    You’re a complete tool. Seriously. You’re utterly worthless. At least Tipster is intelligent.

  67. Posted by San FronziScheme

    When I was saying “Buy buy buy” “Buy from me now?
    Where did I say that? Anyone with 2 cents worth of brains who can follow SS’s history knows what you do here. You know exactly that few would fall for the straight “buy buy buy” talk today. We are not in 2005, people now have grown a natural immunity to these obvious self-serving lies. At least for now… You have adapted your speech accordingly. Don’t insult our intelligence again.
    You’re a complete tool. Seriously. You’re utterly worthless.
    You’re a shill and a troll. Seriously. Anything you write can be classified into the “please open in one year and have a good laugh at the poor soul” category.
    At least Tipster is intelligent.
    I agree Tipster’s intelligent. So are LMRiR, Trip and Diemos and other regulars. Nice to see intelligent guys being right again and again despite the industry shills trying to slow down the debacle.

  68. Posted by posting

    Fernando Nelson was the builder of most of those homes on 20th street. He built two types of homes A and B. 4114 was a B home which did not have a second floor and roof bedrooms were added much later. 4118 was an A home with a grand staircase up to a second floor with bedrooms and a full bath. The A (4118) homes were around 1900 sq feet and the B (4114) homes were much smaller. The value of 4118 is much more than 4114. Yes,I was a neighbor.

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