From the new listing for 235 Broderick:
Sellers purchased 3 months ago with intent to gut and remodel and now their plans have changed. House has been partially gutted to the studs and awaits someone to take over. Plans have been approved by the city and permits have been issued. Plans include expansion of existing garage into 2 car with interior access.
From the web: listed on 1/18/08 for $2,129,000; “offers due Monday 1/28” added on 1/22/08; “offers due” subsequently removed (without an accepted offer) on 1/30.
From you: the reported contract price three months ago (and any other insights).
UPDATE: While we’re still looking for the sellers’ purchase price, one plugged-in reader questions the back of the envelope calculations while another questions the “permits”.
∙ Listing: 235 Broderick (6/3) – $2,000,000 [MLS]
I live very close to this house. The backyard is a paved postage stamp.
Note the street setback….this is NOT a sunny house.
Amazing that somebody would pay so much for this. Somebody’s got money to burn. But then again it IS a 6 BR, I guess.
I’m not so sure those numbers work out. Priced at $500 per sq. ft right now and you are looking at spending at least another $150-$200 per sq. ft (and honestly if I’m shopping in the $2M+ range, I’d probably want some higher end finishes). for a gut remodel job…when the average price is about $650 more or less??? There doesn’t seem to be much opportunity to add value here – which is what I’d want if I have to go through the hassle of a remodel. But maybe that’s just me…
@nowonder:
Sounds like the previous buyers (current sellers) came to that conclusion too, albeit a few months late…
“Plans have been approved by the city and permits have been issued. Plans include expansion of existing garage into 2 car with interior access.”
Per DBI’s online permit tracking system. Plans have NOT been submitted nor approved for this address.
The latest permit PA# 200803318412 was for “DEMO (E) BATHROOM & REPLACE FIXTURES & FINISHES” This permit didn’t require plans and the demolition was to be limited the bathroom.
Someone just made a house inhabitable and a fire hazard (by reducing the fire resistiveness).
you will most likely spend $300-350 per sf for the remodel..normal for high end finishes and quality construction.
C’mon noearch, are you trying to get yourself out of the business.
This place is already 4K sqft, it has a nice facade and a garage, so you can save quite a bit on the cost here. Without looking I’d still guess you do a very nice remodel for $1M, i.e. 250$/ft.
Foolio is correct, at $3M this doesn’t make too much sense in this nabe.
sorry, not the right thread, but anyone know what happened to this place in the end??
https://socketsite.com/archives/2008/06/will_the_winners_curse_and_subsequent_relocation_be_you.html#comments
Doing a quick Google on 235 Broderick, here is what the place looked like apparently BEFORE the gut out started:
http://sfvictorian.blogspot.com/2008/02/235-broderick-street.html
REporn addict…it’s in contract right now….
Interesting link FronziScheme. Save for the outdated kitchen in pics, I don’t see how why this merited a complete gut. Am I missing something? Outdated electrical and plumbing or dry rot through the whole thing? Or was the remodeling process so bad they’re getting a divorce (*shiver*)?
Any update on the purchase price?
Alex over at The Front Steps has a post on this too. It sold for $2M the last time it was for sale. Looks like they are just trying to get out of it without losing everything.
whatever someone…
i guess you’re the architect with this experience and I’m just a drafting drag queen with a bad hairdo.
nowonder,
I also wonder what was wrong with the interior. Maybe not “Dwell” enough?
“drafting drag queen with a bad hairdo.”
Noearch, would you mind if I used this line in the architecture office I work at? It describes one of my co-workers perfectly.
BTW, we may be seeing the end of the era of homes being looked at as real estate “product”, and perhaps, real estate is beginning to be viewed as a HOME again. Who would have thought? Choosing furniture, cabinets and materials because it is what you want to live with, not what will sell in a Flip.
anonarch:
you’re more than welcome to use that line..I have a twisted sense of humor sometimes..and my god, I’m even a well mannered architect.but, i can be sarcastic when it’s needed.:)
yea, I agree. I welcome to time when we start to see our homes as actually “places to live and grow”..what a concept. that’s exactly how my husband and I treat our Noe home currently being remodeled..to enjoy and live in.
noearch,
I didn’t mean to insult, you might be a great architect, which is to me someone who can design the right place for their customer but NOT necessarily the best person to manage the overall project, especially when cost comes to mind.
Personally I don’t mind shelving 50K-100K for someone to do a great job designing a place BUT I rather do the project management and choosing a contractors and various vendors.
I still insist that if all you need to do is plumbing/electrical/drywall AND finishes it could be easily done for $1M. I’m not an architect but someone who did few large projects for myself and wife.
Would you mind telling us a bit more about the scope of your renovation and cost?
someone:
you didnt insult me at all. but as a licensed architect, I only offer full service, starting from programing, planning, permits, construction documents and specs, contractor selection, and finally construction observation. doesnt matter to me if it’s just “plumbing/electrical/finishes” as you say; homeowners don’t have the skills and experience to manage the hundreds of decisions needed to make the project a success.
don’t get me wrong. the client is in charge. they pay my fees..however. they hire the professional, they need to listen to the professional.
I’m confident about my cost/sf numbers. they are real. I stand by them.
someone,
there it is in a nutshell-noearch wants to get paid based on price sq/ft. she will tell you that you need to pay $1.2-1.4M to renovate this house.
having done a fair number of to-the-studs remodels i can confidently say that it can be done for 50-70% less.
don’t believe the hype…
Noearch is always talking about how experienced an architect he is and his infinite knowledge of architecture and construction. How dare you question him, hasn’t he proven his superiority over you minions yet?
I bow to his/her virtual presence. All hail Noearch!
paco honey: only my very best friends dare call me she…and that’s usually after a few shots at Badlands..:)
you need to read more carefully. yes, certainly you can spend $150-200/sf to remodel this house. but the earlier posts talked about “high-end finishes”, appropriate for this house and location..those kind of finishes, i would indeed budget about $300-350/sf for construction costs.
now, bow down and kiss my ass.
Shocking if the interior was substantially gutted after looking at the “before” pictures. If true this is the high end interior equivalent of the vics that were slathered in asbestos tile in the thirties and forties.
Paco, 50% less, maybe.., 70% no way.
UNLESS you use unlicensed people that don’t pay taxes and employ illegal immigrants.
This size of a project I see ~250K just for plumbing/electrical/drywall. Another 80K for a nice kitchen, 20K for flooring. 4 high end baths would be at least 100K. Low voltage another 10K, lightening fixtures 10K, interior trims (labor/material) 100K. Doors/windows 50K installed. misc 30K -> 650K at a minimum without factoring GC overhead and profit so you get close to $800K and that’s without anything special/complicated just good quality finishes.
Ignoring landscaping…
$350/ftx4000sq/ft=$1.4M and $420k is 30% of this outrageous figure.
i know a very fine job can be done for the paltry sum of $420,000.
i would very easily sub out the systems.
plumbing=$30k, electrical=$30k, drywall=$30k,
heating=$10k.
a very nice prehung door is around $400 delivered. (x50=$20k)
millwork=$30k. kitchen and bath fixtures=$30k.
i am amazed that so many people are willing to throw around (and pay) such big numbers. and i’ve been amazed all the way to the bank!
it pays to manage your project (in this case 50-70%).
first of all paco..what do you do for a living? are you an architect? are you a contractor? or are you just a homeowner?
you really don’t know what you’re talking about. when you lowball everything like you do, then the client (homeowner) is always disappointed. I always develop liberal (high per sf) numbers early on in a project. When they come in lower, as they sometimes do, the client is delighted, and so am I.
remember, as I’ve said many times here before, I DO NOT charge an architectural fee based on the cost of construction. My fee is based strictly on the tasks required to produce the documents and services.
I never promise the client the moon and the stars, only to have the project end up in the gutter.
I don’t even want to think about what a house would look like if you budgeted $30K for the kitchen and 3 bathrooms. Maybe like a college dorm?
Noearch,
If the interior remodel projects you have are $350-$350 sq. ft., then I would love to contact your office and get a chance to bid some of the work you have…
Wan’t one of Noearch’s projects featured here on Socketsite? I thought it was a very attractive remodel, and was done without huge costs or major delays.
(btw, I do not know Noearch personally, but I like his work)
Paco,
I can’t beleive you are forcing me to “defend” noearch, but $30K for electrical?
Any credible electrician in the bay area won’t work for less than $60/hr. I redid 3300 sqft house and had at least 120 cans of recessed lights and probably half that much light switches. Just these materials would be 7K-9K, so leave some room for outlet, wirings and we get pretty quickly to 15K for materials alone. Now you need upgraded panels and hooking it to the grid. Which may leave $10K for labor, i.e. 4 weeks.., I don’t think so!
I agree that most people are suckers and to some extent are better off not to try and manage such project because they will f**k it up, but if you can deliver on your cost, I’m surely going to contact you next time we do a project.
Again I’m with Paco, $30K or so is correct for the electrical including material (not including contractor overhead and profit so call it $35K).
yo someone,
you wrote,
“Any credible electrician in the bay area won’t work for less than $60/hr. I redid 3300 sqft house and had at least 120 cans of recessed lights and probably half that much light switches. Just these materials would be 7K-9K, so leave some room for outlet, wirings and we get pretty quickly to 15K for materials alone.”
i do not doubt that you spent alot. full retail can be expensive. i’m just saying it does not have to be so expensive to drill holes, pull wire, set boxes and hook it up-especially when the walls are open and you are not responsible for patching.
anyway-
canned lights=$10/per (x120=$1,200)
dimmer switches=$10/per (x60=$600)
outlets=less than $1 (x100=$100
all the wire your house will need=less than $1,200
materials=less than you are quoting.
you don’t have to believe me-you can look up the prices.
then you said,
” Now you need upgraded panels and hooking it to the grid. Which may leave $10K for labor, i.e. 4 weeks.., I don’t think so!”
call moreno electric (out of san leandro i believe) and they’ll be happy to get this part done for $5k and two days max…
shop around..
as for you no arc, you wrote,
“first of all paco..what do you do for a living? are you an architect? are you a contractor? or are you just a homeowner?
you really don’t know what you’re talking about.”
you might be right; but i sure have enjoyed a profitable and healthy hobby buying, fixing,upgrading, renting out, selling, converting and trading sf real estate over the last 15odd years. i’ve learned alot.
whatever paco…
I get tired of arguing these silly points. but I have always said that, yes, there is always a cheaper way to do everything when it comes to residential remodeling. you get what you pay for.
but you finally clarified it all for me when you said you do this for a “hobby”! now we know.
being a licensed architect, I assure you, is NOT a hobby, it’s a profession. ‘nuf said.
altho its true that i prefer to dabble in real estate i will put my experience and financial success against yours any day.
or to put it another way; you may be marginally successful in your “profession” but i have been wildly successful in my “hobby”.
is that ” ‘nuf said”?
Paco,
I can beleive labor could be done cheaper, but $10 for can/dimmer? Are we talking about low voltage hallogens?
I checked online and various brick and mortar places , and if you buys the kind of quality people install in $3M house you can’t get it for under $40 a piece.
Home depot/contractor special renovation is WAY cheaper, I don’t doubt it. I wouldn’t spend more than $100/ft to gut/renovate a TIC/Condo or a rental, but we are talking about a $3M house here.
Look what happened to those clowns trying to sell these new (suburban homes) on 5xx block of Valley next to Castro (e.g. http://515valley.com/), the same sqft a block down the hill just sold for $1.2M more.
You can buy a pre cut Chinese made granite for $10/sqft installed or pay up to $50/sqft for a slab (rare granite, say Costa Esmeralda or Crema Delicata) at Pietra Fina and probably the same for fabrication.
Walker Zanger or Ann Sacks tiles cost 100 times more than cheap ceramic tiles.
Both have materials you just CANNOT buy anywhere else. I don’t doubt both of them are highly profitable, nor that their product is so much better. It sure likes nicer.
Looking back at how much I paid I suspect I was reaped off on labor quite a bit, say my $250K drywall, plumbing, electrical could have been done for $150K.
Can you please send me a link or a product description for a dimmer/can+trim that cost $10 a pop?
I’m not trying to argue, I really like to learn.
ok someone-
if you add up my proposed numbers you still have plenty of change left over for upgraded stuff. but the overwhelming majority of the system work is about the labor-not the material.
the wire,pipes and drywall cost the same no matter where you put ’em.
as to no arc’s assertion that you would need illegal labor to get it done i say pffft. call five different electrical/plumbing/drywall/tile/floor contractors; ask for their license and insurance info.
(wow, that wasn’t too hard…)
btw low voltage recessed lighting cans cost $20/per if you want to buy them in such quantities. remember-contractors do not pay retail…
If you’re gonna write on this blog, paco..at least be accurate.
I NEVER stated anywhere that you would need “illegal labor” to get the work done. NEVER. read back thru the comments.
remember, the costs you quote may, in fact, work for you fine..you’re a handyman, home made remodeler..and not even a licensed contractor at that. but, it just doesn’t work to compare your “hobby” experiences with mine involving clients, licensed contractors, and high end construction.
You’re comparing apples to oranges.
I am a licensed contractor and Paco is right. I just sold a $3M house, and the elctrical was $30K. Electricians will give a fixed price including all the fixtures in the spec. They will get them cheaper and it will be reflected in the overall price.
someone,
here’s an example; a client of mine spec’d a tile at Ann Sacks it was $20/sq.ft. and had a 4 week lead time. Galleria Tile, 2 blocks down the same street, reps the same company and sells it at $8/sq.ft. Same Tile/Same Company/Different Overhead. That is true of most materials. GGI carries most things at Pietra Fiena for less. Also, your fabricator probably has enough “scraps” in his shop to do your kitchen or bath for way less.
wow no arc,
you wrote,
“remember, the costs you quote may, in fact, work for you fine..you’re a handyman, home made remodeler..and not even a licensed contractor at that. but, it just doesn’t work to compare your “hobby” experiences with mine involving clients, licensed contractors, and high end construction.”
you have made quite a few inaccurate comments above.
what makes you think i am unlicensed btw? and do tell me why my extensive experience in local real estate is not as valid as your so called “professional” space planning?
let’s do a taste test shall we?
from 1993 to the present i have;
bought over 80 units,
converted units to condos (twice) or tic’s(four times),
bought in bankruptcy court and probate court,
added or expanded a garage (3 times).
i’ve sold everything from a $3.75m mansion to a $340,000
tic, and completed the remodelling process for each of these projects. along the way i learned quite a bit about how to buy,fix,rent out or sell property in the city.
you could say that my experience has been hands on-in the trenches.
but i don’t think i could say the same for your experiece…
Great discussion folks.
Let’s leave noearch out of this discussion, it’s very clear where he/she is coming from.
Sparky, that $3M house you sold, were you the developer or just the GC? if the latter, why would you let the developer make > $1M for all your hard work saving him $$$ ?
If you are the developer, I know that contractors get a much better deal from their vendors/subs. 30K doesn’t leave much profit for your electrician, he too lives in the bay area and see what’s going on. He needs to be booked 100% of the time and have only productive employees to take enough home, so in reality someone must be the sucker paying a lot more than 30K so your electrician could maintain a mix of projects.
Same goes for tiles, I’m sure that galleria tile has an OK showroom and far fewer people helping you to design your place. You can go to Ann Saks and get free advice because someone *else* is paying for it.
As for GGI .vs. Pietra fina, I agree that they have similar stuff for much less. BUT there is a huge difference between a developer selling to people an installed product they inspect for 10 minutes during an open house .vs. a future homeowner spending hours inspecting slabs. No one in the bay area had the stone we wanted in that quality. Is it worth it? I don’t know, but it wasn’t the same for sure.
In addition both Sparky & Paco have experience and connections, not something the average home owner will have.
Having said that, I surely learned a lot from this thread and my previous project and the next one will be more cost effective.
This discussion has just made me laugh..a lot..it’s all pretty silly…but it sure has made a number of people get quite defensive.
I don’t pretend to be anything other than a licensed architect with a residential practice. that speaks for itself.
Others have other experience, some licensed as contractors, some as real estate agents..and others as…well..homeowners and handymen..
trust me boys and girls, I’m not here to “compete” and “win”…just here to jump into the fray now and then and offer opinions..it’s often fun, often entertaining.
and, of course you can take them or leave them. pretty simple,huh?
Daggone. You shore luv bein a arkatikt.
yup…i shore do….gives me somethin to do other than work on my chevy up on blocks in the front yard.
all them fancy people with their high class haircuts and hipster t shirts can just suck it.:)
someone,
I was the builder.
I don’t think so, in regards to the electrician, they get in and out and make money. I don’t think other people pay more. I have 3 on going full house projects. All the electrical is the 30K range. It’s also with 2 different electricians. Yes, the contractor is going to get a better price than the homeowner from the electrician and every other sub, but this value should be passed on.
I don’t think you get more help from Ann Sacks than Galleria, but you should have an architect/designer helping you anyway.
Finally, there will be some things on every job that are worth spending more money on than you need to, but you shouldn’t spend more than you need to for the exact same product, that’s all. You love a stone, you love it, done deal!
WOW! SPARKY!
well said.
cost of that Sub-zero: $8000
cost of those 3 little hanging pendants: $1000
cost of that fabulous Italian tile backsplash: $2400
cost of client happiness: priceless.
You can’t get on Sparky’s good side by singing the praises of sub-zero refrigerators. This is a known fact in some sf r.e. development circles.
Fluj is correct there, I do hate sub-zero. I can’t wait for the Green movement to get people to stop wasting money on sub-zero, wolf and viking. All appologies to actual chefs and caterers.
The greenest house is the house already built that is kept as close as possible to its former state (of course, it has to be safe, decent looking and livable). Any change/remodel/greening will require materials, labor (which also all require transportation) and all of those aspects do leave a significant carbon footprint.
A guy who buys a 2000sf house to tear it down and build a 4000sf “green” home is not doing anything “green” apart from the financial aspect…
You can build it, but don’t wrap it up in a green blanket.
Sub-zeros are very energy efficient. it’s a myth that just because they are “high end” is that they are energy hogs. just not true. They meet Dept. of Energy standards.
A typical 36″ wide sub-zero side by side costs only about $58/yr to operate, on ave.
Nothing worse, in my opinion than walking into a recent remodel, say in Noe, for about $1.7m and seeing a slide-in SS refr. in the kitchen, sticking out about 5″ past the counters.
drives me nuts. I love my Sub-zero.
Big difference between cabinet depth and su zero though.
I was just kidding on the Green-ness stuff. I just see people put in cheap cabinets that are going to fall apart around there sub-zero too often.
You less of the frig. sticking out at $1.7M around here than you see Sub-zero, and Wolf in an Ikea kitchen for $2.5-$3M
OMG… these guesstimate threads are the UFC of SS. It’s tiring just getting through people’s opinions.
As far as the permit update goes, I did check out the SFGOV website and it seems they just got the permit a couple days ago. In fact, I probably saw them going through: the poor sucker got Dennis Dang for Building review.
dang it!!
that guy’s overly hard to deal with.
Wow, this thread really got off track didn’t it. I visited this house to see what they had gutted. I did see architectural drawings, nothing really special, the biggest change was a proposal to extend the garage which may look simple in the drawing but once you go downstairs and look at the house you realize that some serious structural engineering is needed.
In addition to tearing our the kitchen and all the bathrooms except one, the people who bought the place went in and smashed out 2 fireplaces, ripped out all the walls and floor in the basement and tore up a wall on the second floor. I almost forgot, they also punched a hole in the roof for a skylight.
The house is virtually all knob and tube wiring but most of the plumbing looks ok except they do need to add a toilet in one of the bathrooms. This house doesn’t need 120 cans, at least 9 in the kitchen plus undercabinet lighting and and a few new fixtures. People need to remember this house is closer to the Western Addition than Pac Heights. Now that it has been rendered uninhabitable, I’d guess this house will cost at least 600K (the garage/foundation alone would run at least 200K) to fix and maybe as much as 750K. It is over 4000 square feet after all. A million would be overdoing it.
My guess is that they got in way over their heads and then couldn’t fix what they started. I’m renovating my own home in the area, but doing so in several phases. Anyone with any experience renovating knows that a lot of hidden costs can lurk behind the walls. If I bought that house, I would have rewired it this year, fixed the kitchen next year (after getting a better feel for the space) and redone 1 bathroom each year. After all that was done, then I would look at expanding the garage. It may have taken a lot longer to do, but I wouldn’t be in the mess these folks are in.
I am using an architect for my project, but I am in charge. Most of the good contractors I know don’t trust most architects. My solution was to find a good contractor and have them recommend one to me.
At 2Million that house is already the most expensive single family house in the neighborhood. It may be years before I’m finished, but it looks like I might be done before my neighbor on Broderick.
campbell:
Garage: There was a lot of time spent downstairs working out parking…Structural engineering plans are done. Yes, its a lot of work but ‘while you’re at it’ cost effective given the value of upgrading from one car external to two cars with internal access, and assuming smaller 2nd car, both would have door access – while making a formerly cramped basement into a really useful space. Ripped out walls? You shoulda seen it before…uninsulated concrete slap, sheetrock wrapped around every which way. It was not an effective use of space.
Fireplaces were removed as part of upgrading for the inevitable shaker. The unreinforced masonry chimneys came down quickly. Better now than later! Plans for at least one of the fireplaces (there were actually three) to be returned.
Hole in ceiling not for skylights! Needed to review framing capacity to carry solar and only way to know was to make a couple of holes. ouch!
In terms of staged remodel, if you lack the ready cash and are prepared to live through it (or take extended vacations elsewhere) then a piece at a time makes sense. But ultimately it has to cost a lot more to do in stages. Unless of course you can do it yourself or you enjoy hanging out with builders day-in, day-out for months on end.
Owners say they will follow through with remodel if a buyer doesn’t show up by mid-August, so only time will tell if the owners really did get in over their heads…or if they just had a change of personal plans.
“Owners say they will follow through with remodel if a buyer doesn’t show up by mid-August”
Well, it’s not mid-August, but the listing seems to have disappeared. Does anyone know what happened?
I’m guessing that no offers showed up at anywhere near the price that would make the owners feel like they hadn’t just imploded a whole lot of $$.
The backside of a bubble shows no mercy, and is a magnificent thing to behold so long as one is safely on the sidelines. Every bubble I have ever looked at eventually ended with every dollar of the phantom bubble asset gain being given back, and usually then some.
It’s not the 2014 SF Raffle Dream Home.