CFAH

A “plugged in” reader shares his perspective on Odeon and 170 Off Third:

I recently visited both the Odeon and 170 Off Third. Both are completely different but I wanted to see what was available on the market. The Odeon only has 2 units left as of yesterday [3/9/07]. I am not considering it because of lack of parking.

Today was the official opening of 170 Off Thirds sales office. A sales rep told me they have been selling for 4 weeks now with 40% sold. I was given a hard hat tour. The prices were reasonable and the units were decent. There is deeded parking for every unit and the developers are working with the city to allow additional parking as a purchase option. The units seemed on the small side to me with 1 bedrooms ranging from 700-850 sqft and 2 bedrooms ranged from 900 – just over 1000 sqft. Prices were $795-835 per sqft depending on what floor the unit was on.

My only gripe with the complex was that the hallways were tiny. I am 5ft9 and was able to easily extend my arms to touch both sides of the wall in the hallway. The hallway ceilings were also lower than usual. There was a broker in my tour group and he looked 6ft 3 or so. He was able to reach up and touch the ceiling! It made me feel claustrophobic but over all and given the price range I will definitely give this building some consideration.

Keep in mind that 170 Off Third has only released a portion on their inventory (which includes 24 BMRs), so “40% sold” likely represents somewhere around 40 deposits on the 174 market rate condos. [See UPDATE below]
And we almost forgot, the opening paragraph of our reader’s email: “I just wanted to say great website. I read it everyday and it has been really helpful.” Our pleasure, thanks for “plugging in”, and don’t forget our invitation to the housewarming (wherever it may be).
UPDATE (3/14): We stand corrected. From another “plugged in” reader: “Originally a month ago they were releasing the building in 2 phases however the response was so good that they very shortly (like in week 2 of selling) switched tacts and released the entire building for sale and the prices have slightly increased $10-$15k on some of the hottest selling floor plans, from their original pre-release prices of a month ago.”
As such, “40% sold” likely represents closer to 55 (not 40) deposits on market rate units and 24 deposits on below market rate units (out of a total 198 condos). Thanks for the tip!
The Kind Of Email We Love To Get (And An Odeon Question) [SocketSite]
170 Off Third (170 King/177 Townsend): Sales And Design Center [SocketSite]

Comments from Plugged-In Readers

  1. Posted by redseca2

    Thanks for mentioning the hallways. The real life experience of getting to your home once you are in the building is important to me. There are many buildings where I like the unit and the building exterior but the path to the unit is a complete turn off. I was very interested in a nice brick/timber loft unit at the Oriental Warehouse last year but the hallway approach was literally way too much. The unit was a the furthest possible point in the building in relation to the entrance and you walked the equivalent of a city block down hallways right out of a Motel 6. Of course you could come up the back stairs from the garage, but when units drift into seven figures I do not want to cut them any slack.

  2. Posted by Anonymous

    170 off third’s price may seem “reasonable” on paper because of the deeded parking, but hold your thought until you see their finishes both in the units and the common areas. I’ll be nice and just say they are cheap. Regarding the hallway, I think the darkness is the smaller issue that can be easily corrected. The thing that bothered me the most is that there are too many color schemes going on at the same time along with cheap carpeting and exposed concrete in every single hallway. That plus poor quality within the units from window framing to the kitchen cabinets and oddly positioned island will make residents all feel like starving artists. Wait for price reductions and 2 yr HOAs, this place should make good rentals for the UCSF students.

  3. Posted by We'll See

    Agreed that it will be interesting. A few points is that this building is in South Beach and less cluttered that the rest of the urban shadow developments in Mission Bay. It also has a ballpark appeal as opposed to a high-density appeal. These units feel bigger and probably are gauged on the smallest square footage versus the get sued high estimate that some developers used in the past. I saw a 2BR listed at 900 squares and it definitely felt bigger than just 900.. This is MY OPINION only. Where else can you get high floor view units for a decent price. Finishes include Danze which I hear is well priced but attractive and reliable.

  4. Posted by Anonymous

    I was not impressed by these units either. They feel cheap. Low ceilings, small floorplans (in the 2 bedroom units I saw, I’m almost certain that my bed would barely fit in either bedroom), average finishes and dark, narrow hallways. I think this building will do well over time due to it’s location, but I wouldn’t want to live in it.

  5. Posted by anonymous

    If the Odeon has only two units left, then something must’ve been very right there. I can think of three things: location, location, location.

  6. Posted by Be reasonable

    Everyone is so critical on this site! It’s as if you’re expecting to build your own custom property or something. What truck did you fall off of? The developers do the best they can to try and make their building unique, but it won’t please everyone all the time. Personally, I hate the psuedo-tropical 88 King building and the carbon-copy, bland buildings on Berry St, but that’s just me.
    Good units in Mission Bay are hard to come by. I find it funny when someone picks apart a color scheme or a slightly low ceiling in a hallway and claims it’s the reason for not buying in the building. If you want to buy in Mission Bay, everyone knows that all that really matters is the location, layout and view (aside from price, obviously). If a unit has a good location, layout and view, I can’t seriously believe that someone would pass it up because the hallway is a bit low or the paint is wrong or the bathroom tile is too dark. If you don’t like the color of something… change it! When you are spending between $800k and $1M on a unit, what’s another $5k for new bathroom tile and a few coats of paint or whatever. If anyone has ever bought a house in any other part of the world, you know that you find something that you are about 80-90% happy with and change/fix the rest. So, when you compare what’s out there for decent 2BR/2BA units with a good location, layout and view, I think 170 off Third is a decent buy for the price. I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts on what’s better.

  7. Posted by Anonymous

    “When you are spending between $800k and $1M on a unit, what’s another $5k for new bathroom tile and a few coats of paint or whatever.”
    On the other hand, if I’m spending close to a million dollars on a condo, I’d also nitpick the smallest details and want everything to be perfect. But then, I’ve only recently moved to the Bay Area so perhaps I should adjust my standards on what I’m getting for a cool million?

  8. Posted by Anonymous

    “Everyone is so critical on this site! It’s as if you’re expecting to build your own custom property or something. What truck did you fall off of?”
    [Was that necessary?]
    “Personally, I hate the psuedo-tropical 88 King building and the carbon-copy, bland buildings on Berry St, but that’s just me.”
    [And other people’s opinions are just theirs. However, at least the residences on Berry and 88 King came standard with at least 9 feet high ceilings (8 feet or so is standard at 170 Off Third and 9 feet is on the “upgraded” 10th and 11th floors).]
    “I find it funny when someone picks apart a color scheme or a slightly low ceiling in a hallway and claims it’s the reason for not buying in the building.”
    [As noted, they are very low, and it’s not just in the hallway. How anyone couldn’t notice the low ceilings and narrow hallways is beyond me.]
    “When you are spending between $800k and $1M on a unit, what’s another $5k for new bathroom tile and a few coats of paint or whatever.”
    [In light of the fact that one also has to purchase window coverings, a fridge, an washer and dryer and wood floors, 5K is quite a bit for quite a few people.]

  9. Posted by Anonymous

    “If the Odeon has only two units left, then something must’ve been very right there. I can think of three things: location, location, location”
    Or, it could be the fact that it’s a much smaller building that has been selling for over 6 months. Perhaps 170 Off Third should hold off on offering parking.

  10. Posted by Anonymous

    “Everyone is so critical on this site!………….What truck did you fall off of?……………….If you want to buy in Mission Bay, everyone knows that all that really matters is the location, layout and view………………….I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts on what’s better.”
    1. View: What view? The only units get some exterior “view” are the small portion of units facing King st. and 6th floor up units facing townsend. Together, they consist of only about 20% of the building.
    2. Location: I would disagree with how negative most people here feel about this location (do a search on older posts), ONLY IF I have access to a time machine that allows me to buy now and live here 7 years later.
    3. Layout: 170 off third offers the second smallest set of plans currently in the market of large condo project, Palms the first.
    4. The careless color schemes and pitch dark hallways only add to the number of other less visible reasons that made people what you call “critical”. Somehow I feel you won’t stop asking which truck they fell off of if all these other reasons were listed instead. And no, you cannot spend 5k on paint and change the colors in the hallways and common areas.
    5. “I’m interested to hear people’s thoughts on what’s better.” I don’t know…the next project you work for perhaps?

  11. Posted by tipster

    Hills Plaza has low ceilings and long dark hallways and that building is always popular. It’s a good location.
    As for 5K in paint being a stopping point, I suspect that people are stretching financially to get into these places. If you can barely afford the mortgage, $5K in paint is going to be put on the back burner for a couple of years. So realistically, it IS a big deal, in spite of its low price relative to the rest of the place.
    That sounded so very “let them eat cake” of you: $5K is not that big of a deal to a lot of people, but not someone who just bought their first condo.

  12. Posted by Be reasonable

    Wow, sensitive! Didn’t mean to step on all the self-proclaimed expert toes out there. Rest assured that I do NOT work for any development, like I’m sure most of the other frequent posters here do. I’m just a condo shopper in SOMA, like the hundreds of others I see every weekend, that stumbled across this site because I looked at units in 170 off Third and every other development that you can think of.
    I’ve come to realize in my months of shopping that there is no perfect unit or development. New developments sell out of the good/upper units quickly and the rest are left for the people that post on this site to complain about. Every development has good and bad units and good and bad features. I guess wou just need to get lucky and find a good one and jump on it. I agree that some of the 170 off Third units are quite small, but I also saw some that were decently sized, and, more impotantly, well laid out. And, I’m sure they are gone by now. Like I said before, if you want to live near the ballpark and find a decent layout and (even somewhat of) a view, I’ve learned you might have to accept some less than desirable colors or not your first choice in finishes.

  13. Posted by SFAgent

    “Be Reasonable” – you honestly sound anything but. If an agent or sales team can’t get a buyer past the easy fixes, it’s not the “critical” buyer that’s the problem.

  14. Posted by Anonymous

    Be reasonable: according to your own “expert” knowledge “If anyone has ever bought a house in any other part of the world, you know that you find something that you are about 80-90% happy with and change/fix the rest.” Great condescending advice coming from someone who has apparently looked at “every other development that you can think of” in San Francisco and still hasn’t bought. Perhaps you should be more like this “critical” poster:
    https://socketsite.com/archives/2007/02/the_kind_of_email_we_like_love_to_get_and_a_question.html
    Do your homework and stop blaming other people’s success on “luck”.

  15. Posted by Anonymous

    If the common hallways were larger, wouldn’t the homes themselves be smaller? Why care about the hallway? I just haven’t noticed the hallway being at the top of most people’s list of concerns when buying or renting a condo.

  16. Posted by Anonymous

    “If the common hallways were larger, wouldn’t the homes themselves be smaller? Why care about the hallway? I just haven’t noticed the hallway being at the top of most people’s list of concerns when buying or renting a condo.”
    Have you seen the hallways at 170 Off Third? Typically, hallways are not an issue, however, the hallways in 170 Off Third are unusually small in width and the ceilings are unusually low in height. In all honesty, it is the first time I’ve been in a building in the area and actually noticed the hallways or ceiling height, but when they are noticeably off, like they are in this particular development, it’s an issue. I wouldn’t spend $800K to $1M to live there, but some people obviously will. Pay a visit to the property to see for yourself.

  17. Posted by Anonymous

    “I just haven’t noticed the hallway being at the top of most people’s list of concerns when buying or renting a condo.”
    Read the posts above again. No one said hallway is the most important factor to consider when buying condos. It’s just one of the many things that this project did a poor job on. And it just so happens that the first fellow reader commented on this particular issue and obviously most people agreed as discussion went on.
    Before I went to look at the building, I thought their artistic approach was definitely a classier and more considerate move than some other projects in the area. But I felt I wasted my time and expectations after seeing what a lousy job they did with finishes and the overall design. The place looks like the architects and the interior design team were running on the tightest budget possible or getting screwed on their commissions. Disappointment is the only thing that I left this building with. But I have to say it was probably a smart move from the seller’s point. The use of cheap materials and smaller sizes in plans definitely allowed them to come out with deceptively “reasonable” prices and plenty of room to give out incentives when sales dies out.

  18. Posted by Anonymous

    I watched this building being built as i live a block away and also had high expectations when they first started. Looking at it now, it looks horrible. The wierd windows and they way they were designed, it looks like they tried suff as many units into this box and it’s now overfilling.
    Location is good and if they keep prices down, it might be worth it but from what i saw at the sales office, it looks like this will be sitting for awhile!

  19. Posted by 170 Browser

    I went to 170 two weeks ago. I was looking for a 1 bedroom under $600k and was immediately told that everything at the price level was gone. On the way out the door I looked at the kitchen finishes and another agent came and talked to me. She mentioned they did have a few. They were horrible. One of the units actually had a pillar in the middle of the bedroom. It was on the third floor and it it was right smack in the middle of the bedroom, you could not put the smallest bed in that room.
    I was turned off by the sales staff from the start. The sales manager was anything but helpful must have been my price range. But then looking at the units maybe its better that they do say that they are all gone because the places I looked at should not be classified as bedrooms.

  20. Posted by tipster

    Hey Browser. That’s really strange. I was just there over the weekend and was shown several units under 600k. I was told unit 436, a 1 bedroom + den, was going for 596k at 750sqft. This really makes me wonder what is really going on over there in their sales office.

  21. Posted by Location?

    I just finshed reading the comments on Radience and it looks like a view costs you $1,000+ per square for a view and to be in the middle of a remidiated dump site. For $100 a foot, I imagine I could potentially remodel a 170 unit to a Limn caliber and have a better location? I could sacrifice $100 per foot for low ceilings. It’s all in how you look at it.

  22. Posted by AntiMarkCompany

    Hey Browser: Understand your complaints. Simply wont purchase anything that sales office has to offer. One of the same guys that worked at the Beacon runs this property now. I think the attitude walked down the street with him.

  23. Posted by Anonymous

    I went to see this building recently and thought it’s a great deal for the neighborhood and the views. I saw a nice-sized one bedroom with amazing views of the ballpart and the bay, and it wasn’t even on a very high floor (I think it was on the 6th or 7th). There was no pole in the bedroom and it had a large walk-in closet. After seeing the courtyard views, the views staring at other people’s units, or a junk yard by the Berries, this place is a nice change for the area at price I can afford. The views will also be good for resale. I may buy in this building.

  24. Posted by BeaconVS170?

    I really think that 170 is a good opportunity when you compare what else there is or was. Compared to the rental white and cheap finishes at the lower floor Beacon units (excluding the upper executive units), 170 has stunning finishes, but compared to anything with a 1,200 foot price they are mediocre. Those lower floor non-view units at the beacon were $800K just recently and were selling at this price back when it had litigation, was on a land lease, and there was a glut of resale and developer units. Its all relative. For that matter, Aterror has smaller 2BRs with only one bath where you can see your 50 neighbors as they cook and sleep for what you pay for a view at 170!

  25. Posted by CuriousBuyer

    Hi Browser: It’s tough when you are looking for a one-bedroom in a new development, right by the ballpark, with deeded parking, for less than $600K. It’s a sad reality, but whatever you get will probably have a flaw, be it size, a pole in the bedroom, a view of nothing or whatever. I’ve seen that unit. It’s really a studio with an office. I’ve seen some one-bedroom lofts across the beacon in your price range and they are really nice.

  26. Posted by 170Buyer

    I agree that 170 Off Third isn’t the picture of perfection as far as new developments, but I think taking into the account the location and price compared to what is currently out there, it’s a pretty good deal. I bought a decent-sized 2bd/2ba for just under $800k. Granted, the fridge and washer/dryer aren’t included (and that bugs the hell out of me) but it seems like all these new developments do screwy things like that in order to leave room for when they are trying to push the units to sell. The building has all the amenities that seem standard for new developments (even if it’s not done with the luxury and upscale feel associated with Infinity or St Regis) along with parking and a great location. In the long run, for any investment of that kind of money, it’s all about location, location, location and I think it’s this factor that becomes its biggest selling point.
    In regards to the sales team, it’s hit or miss. They probably aren’t the friendliest of people, but I think they are just copping an attitude to make it feel like their development is the bomb. It’s irritating… but at the same time, what can you do. Look at the big picture. You’re buying a place, not the people.

  27. Posted by Anonymous

    “Hi Browser: It’s tough when you are looking for a one-bedroom in a new development, right by the ballpark, with deeded parking, for less than $600K. ”
    That’s not true…
    “I was turned off by the sales staff from the start. The sales manager was anything but helpful must have been my price range. But then looking at the units maybe its better that they do say that they are all gone because the places I looked at should not be classified as bedrooms.”
    170 Browser,
    I went to their office last Tuesday, and they had plenty of 1s under 600K, smaller sizes obviously, I just had to keep asking. I met the sales manager there at another development before I don’t exactly remember where, and he always had this really cocky attitude. It looked as if he were doing buyers a huge favor by spending time with them. I hope the developer is reading this: reeducate your sales team and make sure they understand what they are selling not just in the product but what a “home” means to buyers. It’s funny how you can get that warm and welcomed feeling at a hotdog stand and not here when buying a $800k condo.

  28. Posted by Anonymous

    I’m surprised the units at 170 did not come complete. All the other new developments on the market offer an min. a complete kitchen and they throw in HOA’s. If the sales team decides to offer rebates in the future, will the early buyers get the same also considering they didn’t close on the unit yet?
    I realize 2 years ago, developers did not have to offfer these promos but w/ competition on every block, it looks like each one will offer something. Look at the Infinity, they offer a complete kitchen and washer.
    Question to plugged in readers? Is it good to let a new development sit for some time or is it better to reserve early. An example is The Palms, Beacon and Watermark. Looks like the longer you wait, the better the price is. All those developments have bad/good units available. Why buy so early when the building is not complete??
    Any insiders(brokers,agent, readers) want to clarify this?
    It’s not always great to be in First Release anymore!

  29. Posted by Dude

    Not a broker or an agent, but I think waiting is best now. It was great to be early when the circus was still in town. When you knew some smart investor would buy your unit for $100K more than you paid 3 months later so they could sell it to an even smarter investor for $100K more 3 months after that. But it seems we’re slowly running out of smarter investors, so you lose nothing by waiting in this market.

  30. Posted by Anonymous

    I agree Dude! That’s why i asked the question. Why are people jumping at 170 now, when in the future the price will be the same but they’ll throw in xtras? There will also be good units left as they sometimes leave them to the end.

  31. Posted by Anonymous

    Waiting depends on what your waiting on. Do I think 1Rincon or Infinity deals will get any better . . . NO. Do I think 170 will; hell yes.
    There may, however, always be something better just over the horizon.

  32. Posted by 170Buyer

    I really have to agree that the sales manager at 170 Off Third is unfriendly and cocky. I also agree that they need to rethink how they train their sales people… but if you can get past their arrogance, then it is still a decent buy. I hate how they put a bunch of add on’s as well, but it’s the nature of new developments here. IRRITATING!

  33. Posted by Sales Guy

    You would have a bad attitude too if you had to answer the same stupid questions day in and day out (you all know what HOA dues include). While we are there to answer your questions we are also required to ask questions to determine who is: A) a real buyer, B) a marketing company rep./ competitor posing as a buyer, C) a professional timewaster.
    Next time you encounter a sales person, lose the agressive negative attitude and I bet you will get the kind of service that you desire.

  34. Posted by Anonymous

    Yes 170 Buyer, blame it on the customer – that thinking may be at the heart of the problem with the sales team. The sales team should think about how they can acheive their goals without the unwanted result of pissing of buyers.

  35. Posted by Anonymous

    Also, if answering the same stupid questions all day is part of the job, then they should consider hiring someone who can do that without getting a bad attitude. Or, modify the way they give information so they do not have to: flyers, video, etc.

  36. Posted by JohnW.

    We have been searching for a home in South Beach/SOMA Districts for over 2 months now. We asked about this project and our agent immediately asked us to pass this one up. He stated that he refused to deal with the sales manager any longer, even though other people bought in this place through him. We were thinking it must be bad to give up $15-20k in commissions just to avoid dealing with this manager. And now I read all of these postings and I wonder what in the heck is the developer thinking keeping this person in charge, or even on the staff? It sounds like real estate sales is not really his thing. And from the sounds of the posts above it doesnt look like we missed much in terms of the units and finishes they have to offer. I will admit after reading these today I want to go in there just to meet this manager that everyone has come to love so much.

  37. Posted by In Be Reasonable's Camp

    Ah Be Reasonable, I dare say many of us share your sentiments. There is a decidely negative tone I always find here, but I’m told it’s the same on all blog sites. A side effect of not being able to tell tone on email, and the boldness that people feel with the illusion of being anonymous.
    The manager of 170 off Third did not come from the Beacon – that guy left and is working for another company, and most of the sales staff are from other developments with the exception of one woman who may appear sharper than she really is. Europeans can sometimes come off as curt.
    John, I appreciate the trust you put in your agent – but to me I wonder how many other properties might work for you that he would ask you to pass up or not tell you about because of a personality conflict. There are many agents I would love to avoid but as a professional I just get over myself and do my job.
    I could outline a laundry list of grievances of all the marketing sales staff I have encountered. (dont get me started on making buyers camp out for 3 days, literally camp outside for THREE DAYS, to get the first pick of a new release that Pacific Marketing did as a stunt to get publicity for 88 Townsend) that was of course before SocketSite. Personally I have been treated well by the Mark Co over the years.
    I doubt most people will find they have a poor experience at the sales office, but sure if you walk in expecting to get one…well I suppose we’re in the Secret’s realm then.

  38. Posted by Anonymous

    Hey Sales Guy, i think its time for you to find a new job. Looks like sales and customer service is not your thing.
    Hopefully you are NOT a sales rep from 170!

  39. Posted by Anonymous

    “You would have a bad attitude too if you had to answer the same stupid questions day in and day out (you all know what HOA dues include). While we are there to answer your questions we are also required to ask questions to determine who is: A) a real buyer, B) a marketing company rep./ competitor posing as a buyer, C) a professional timewaster.
    Next time you encounter a sales person, lose the agressive negative attitude and I bet you will get the kind of service that you desire.”
    Looks like you’ll be stuck at the front line of doing nothing but answering “stupid questions” for a long time with that disgusting attitude. I Hope at least you are pretty.

  40. Posted by Be all Know all

    I don’t get all the hating on this site? this project is great! Get over any issues you with the staff (this is so highschool) & realize this is a solid buy. You can’t beat the location, the amenities & price point. Seriously – get off yourself & take the project for what it is.

  41. Posted by Happy Buyer

    From the perspective of a recent buyer–We have recently purchased a new home at 170 Off Third and we are happy and excited. Our experience has been absolutely positive with ALL sales staff, including the manager. The development is creative and the location is key! It’s a wonderful addition to the new developments available. Now is the time to buy for first choice of your view. Waiting for incentives later may cost your your view and first choice of your desired unit. I understand the all units are available for purchase. None are held back by developer. We had a great selection to choose from.

  42. Posted by Anonymous

    So that’s one good experience, and MANY bad.

  43. Posted by Anonymous

    “From the perspective of a recent buyer”- Sounds like the sales manager bought a unit for himself there?

  44. Posted by Colin C.

    John W. – I live in the area and happen to know that a local agent was asked not to do anymore business at this project due to some questionable practices. hmmm…wonder if it’s the same agent that you are working with???

  45. Posted by New Condo Owner

    All this talk about the sales staff is pretty funny. It all really comes down to what is the value of the place and how do you like it. The sales staff is just like a website that you have to click your way through to get information and that’s it. It seems like so many of the people posting here take everything so personally. It is all just business. That being said, I found that 170 off third had the nicest sales staff of any of the places in South Beach/Mission Bay and I have visited every single on e of them I think! The last two weeks, I must have stopped by their office every other day in order to make a decision about a unit there. Each time, the sales person would immediately stop what they were doing and bring me up to whatever unit I wanted to see. When the person I was dealing with wasn’t there, a different person was equally nice. The weekends are a little different and they are basically herding cattle around, but that is to be expected.
    Anyways, I have looked at 10 – 12 places a week for the past 3 months and I ended up getting a place at 170 Townsend. I suppose it just comes down to taste and assessment of value.

  46. Posted by Anon

    Has anyone seen the new art on the building fascade?

  47. Posted by condoshopper

    I visited this weekend before reading all these posts. I actually liked the untis/views/location, but the hallways and exploding jewel-tone carpets did look like one of Disney’s low-end hotel developments– which is fine when you’re looking for value priced accomodations. However a strange choice, if you are selling 500K+ plus condos. Had a similar impression of the Palms– decent pricing, but interiors look a bit cheap, even when brand new. In contrast, the Bridgeview is a similar price point for a starter 1BR and did everything in classy neutrals. Still looks great after 5 years.
    May not be enough to cross the development off my list, but just left me really confused. Why would a developer select interiors that detract from the overall effect? I could probably get past the decor for a really good price, but in terms of re-sale would be worried the decor presents a silly limitation on what otherwise is a decent, appealing development.

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